Bleach and Vulcanite?

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settersbrace

Lifer
Mar 20, 2014
1,565
5
Having had a lengthy career as a Master Plumber it's no secret to me that bleach, even in a diluted state, atfacks and destroys rubber. Those blue things that people hang in their toilet tanks of earned plumbers millions of dollars in repairs to the rubber flappers and tank bolt gaskets that are made of rubber.

That all being said and with my interest in restoration I am compelled to question why it is suggested that we soak our Vulcanite, (rubber) stems in such a solution? I realize that in the end you end up with a nice clean and shiny new looking stem after some polishing but hasn't there been some lasting and perhaps ongoing damage done to this stem? What other methods are used to clean up a heavily oxidized stem?

 

ejames

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
3,916
22
I ain't no chemist but there is a bit of a difference in the rubber used in toilets (which probably haven't been made of "real" rubber in a good many years??) and the vulcanized rubber used in pipe stems. No doubt that repeated and or prolonged exposure to bleach would harm the stems. That said, I have bleached hundreds of stems--each one bleached only one time-- and have NEVER had a stem fail,taste bad, smell,rot or disintegrate or...... Any metal parts on a stem must be protected as should painted logos with Vaseline.

There's several ways to remove oxidation,but for heavy oxidation,bleaching is the best way--IMO-- to quickly,easily and TOTALLY remove it.

 

settersbrace

Lifer
Mar 20, 2014
1,565
5
That's the type of assurance I'm looking for ejames. I figured if I could draw out a response or two from well established restorers I'd feel more at ease about the process. Believe it or not, even though rubber has in some cases been replaced by silicone, there's still a lot of pure rubber flappers being sold and I've seen them all but dissolve in some bleach environments in a very short period of time. I know we are speaking apples and oranges here. I'll follow the practices of the real pro like yourself. Thanks!

 

fnord

Lifer
Dec 28, 2011
2,746
8
Topeka, KS
I'm with Mr. Ed, Settersbrace.
I've only bleached four dozen or so stems, and have kept maybe ten of those burners in my collection. A three to four hour bath in a 50/50 solution of bleach and water has had no - repeat - no negative effects on the stems. The soak is a one time Charlie, meant to slay the olive green monster, and then, for God's sake, learn to practice some routine stem maintenance.
Would I take a teaspoon of turpentine? No thanks. Or pour a dash of kerosene on an open wound? I'd rather not, but my mom did growing up on a farm in SW Missouri. She lived a good life and fondly remembered electricity coming to her valley in addition to seeing a flush toilet for the first time.
You can certainly go the Oxy Clean - Magic Eraser route, however, I'll pass. Life is just too damned short.
Fnord

 
Mar 30, 2014
2,853
78
wv
Bleach it. Love it.
Bleach will eat metal stingers and threads so cover them in and out with vaseline if the stem has one.

 

settersbrace

Lifer
Mar 20, 2014
1,565
5
Bleach it'll be then. I'm searching for some rats to get some practice/experience on and the simpler the better. Work smart, not hard has long been my motto.

 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
5,491
13,920
Chemically converting oxidized rubber into a form that allows it to be flushed away ALWAYS leaves a surface that is rough and pebbled and must be reshaped and refinished with cutting & abrasive tools.
By definition, the alternative---jumping straight in with cutting and abrasive tools and staying with them until the desired result is achieved---is simpler, cheaper, and faster in every case.
Why anyone would choose to add steps to the de-greening process has always mystified me. Can one of you bleach-soak guys explain why you stuck with it after discovering it wasn't a "magic bullet" and hand work was still required?
(I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be a smartass. As in, maybe I missed something.)

 

huntertrw

Lifer
Jul 23, 2014
5,223
5,346
The Lower Forty of Hill Country
georged:
Put me solidly in the "...bleach-soak..." camp.
In my experience the amount of polishing required after a bleach-soak varies from stem-to-stem, and may be predicated upon the composition of the Vulcanite in question. In any event, I have never had to use "cutting tools" to restore glossy blackness to the roughened surface. Simple micro-mesh pads do the job for me, and the amount of material removed is minimal.

 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
5,491
13,920
In my experience the amount of polishing required after a bleach-soak varies from stem-to-stem, and may be predicated upon the composition of the Vulcanite in question. In any event, I have never had to use "cutting tools" to restore glossy blackness to the roughened surface. Simple micro-mesh pads do the job for me, and the amount of material removed is minimal.
Any mechanical object that removes material is a cutting tool. The only distinction is the size of the chip created BY the tool (with vulcanite that would range from millimeters to microns)
As for the amount of material being minimal, black & healthy vulcanite is black & healthy vulcanite, and stopping when you reach it is what determines minimum material removal. How you got there doesn't matter. Like digging a hole in the ground until you reach bedrock... it makes no difference whether you used a rear loader, high pressure hoses & pumps, or blasting and hand shoveling, the amount of soil removed is the same.
In short, I'm still mystified why anyone would choose to do extra work to "get to black."

 

kf4bsb

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 23, 2013
166
0
I understand what georged is saying and can tell you that there have been a couple of times that I have gone to work on a stem without soaking it in anything first. does it work, yes.
I prefer to use an oxiclean soak as opposed to bleach. I have found that a good soak in oxiclean softens the oxidation and allows for faster removal without giving the stem as bad of a pebbly surface as bleach. In some cases, I have actually had the stems come out of the soak completely clear of any oxidation and I can move direct to polishing, but generally that is not the case.
In most cases, I soak the stem in an oxiclean solution, remove the stem, and give it a wipe down with 0000 steel wool. Not a scrub, but a wipe. After the soak a light wiping with the steel wool generally is enough to remove about 95% of the oxidation. From there I move to final clean up and buffing.
Of course, this is what works for me and the one thing I know about restoring pipes is that everyone has their own way of doing it and that no one way is necessarily better than another. Just different ways to get to the same result.
If you will excuse me now, I think I am going to partake of a pint and a bowl.

 

huntertrw

Lifer
Jul 23, 2014
5,223
5,346
The Lower Forty of Hill Country
kf4bsb:
It does not sound to me like your process is any less labor-intensive than that which I use. Interestingly, I have had Vulcanite stems come out of the bleach-soak with NO visually apparent surface degradation, a phenomenon which I attribute to the particular rod-stock the maker utilized.

 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
5,491
13,920
georged:
So what do you do to "get to black"?
It depends on the severity & depth of the discoloration. In the worst cases I'll start with a "stem knife" type scraper, then move to files, and finally to sandpaper. For less severe cases just filing and paper. I'm absolutely rabid about keeping things "crispy sharp" and never rounding or blurring edges, or scalloping broad surfaces, so never use buffing for anything more than creating a shine.
The desired end result---my personal ideal, anyway---is not just a used-looking stem that's black, but a black stem that looks literally new.

 

ejames

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
3,916
22
Chemically converting oxidized rubber into a form that allows it to be flushed away ALWAYS leaves a surface that is rough and pebbled and must be reshaped and refinished with cutting & abrasive tools.
True,but those pits are not deep. Usually with most stems a 600 grit paper will remove them quite easily. Depth of the pitting seems to me to be related to the quality of the rubber used to make the stem.
By definition, the alternative---jumping straight in with cutting and abrasive tools and staying with them until the desired result is achieved---is simpler, cheaper, and faster in every case.
Why anyone would choose to add steps to the de-greening process has always mystified me. Can one of you bleach-soak guys explain why you stuck with it after discovering it wasn't a "magic bullet" and hand work was still required?
The extra step of bleaching a stem really adds very little work to that required to shine up a stem. I put them in the bleach,move on to something else and when they've soaked long enough rinse them well with warm water. Total time involved per stem--maybe one minute.

I only bleach heavily oxidized stems. Many I will just use sandpaper and buffing compounds,what ever is needed to remove the oxidation--totally.

I've noticed,and YMMV- that when I have used only mechanical means to remove oxidation that quite often when I take it to the buffer there is still some residual oxidation there,despite sanding and buffing. I do not want to see any oxidation on a stem after I buff. The bleach insures that I will not.

And if you're worried about the amount of material removed--by any means-take some careful measurements with a micrometer or dial calipers and you may be surprised just how little material is removed.

 

kf4bsb

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 23, 2013
166
0
Hunter, I don't think my process is any less labor intensive and while I do occasionally use bleach, I stick to oxiclean most of the time. As far as sanitizing goes, Oxygen Bleach (which is what oxiclean is) does sanitize just as well , and in some cases better than bleach.
Yes, oxygen bleach works as a disinfectant. One of the active ingredients of oxygen bleach is sodium percarbonate, which becomes hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate when added to water. Hydrogen peroxide is a known disinfection at concentrations between 6% to 25%. OxiClean contains 18% hydrogen peroxide, a level well within the disinfecting range of the chemical. Furthermore, some microorganisms such as the parasite Cryptosporidium are resistant to (sodium hypochlorite) bleach. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommend hydrogen peroxide. In other words, oxygen bleach disinfects and, in some cases, the hydrogen peroxide in oxygen bleach disinfects better than sodium hypochlorite bleach.
Additionally, although bleach also disinfects, oxygen bleach is a better cleaner for use in hard water. Bleach can react poorly to the minerals such as iron in hard water. Even Clorox advises against using bleach in hard waters with metals. In fact, Clorox specifically recommends oxygen bleach for use in hard water. The sodium carbonate in oxygen bleach works as a water softener while the hydrogen peroxide works as a disinfectant, both without reacting poorly to irons in certain hard waters.
With all that being said, do I get better results than people who use Clorox, probably not. Is my way less labor intensive, probably not. Just a different way of doing things. Not trying to argue.

 

torque

Can't Leave
May 21, 2013
444
2
Why anyone would choose to add steps to the de-greening process has always mystified me. Can one of you bleach-soak guys explain why you stuck with it after discovering it wasn't a "magic bullet" and hand work was still required?
I'm firmly in the oxiclean crowd but have used bleach on the rare occasion when faced with really stubborn oxidation. For me it isn't so much about trying to make it easier as it is about doing a more complete job. Vulcanite is a sulfur impregnated rubber. The surface sulfur on a vulcanite stem is going to oxidize. It isn't a matter of "if" but simply a matter of "when". By using a oxidizing soak (oxiclean/bleach/whatever) I have the luxury of maintaining control over the "when". I personally don't want to put all the work into polishing a stem to a shiny, glossy, glass-like black finish only to have any residual surface sulfur discolor the stem 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years down the road. I prefer to use a "pre-oxidizing" step so that I can accelerate the inevitable before doing that initial clean and hopefully mitigate any oxidizing effects down the road. For me it's more about trying to hedge against future oxidation than about trying to make the job easier. Anyway, those are my reasons and, as the saying goes, other's mileage may vary.

 
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