The meaning of Dunhill's OD designation has been pretty clearly defined but I wonder about the use of letters on other British makes. I have a few Sasieni King Size pipes...two are patents with small dots, one slightly later with no patent and somewhat larger dots but still "family era". None have shape numbers or town names, but are stamped with the letter "B". I think later iterations were stamped with a "G" or "SG" although I could be misremembering. I recall when Bob Havens (Milwaukee) began his estate business in the mid-70's (taking over from Fritz Felcone,of NJ) he put out a wants lists including King Size Sasienis but only with the letter "B". I also have a Comoy's 342 billiard, but have seen Comoy's 342B as well. I note in the 1956 Comoy's catalog newly reprinted on this forum there are some shapes with an appended "C", etc, and I have seen some Barling's such as the 71A. So how, for instance, is the Comoy's 342 different from a 342A? I assume these letters must have SOME significance.
Alphabet Soup and Britwood
- Thread starter Lemuel Pitkin
- Start date
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The Barling 71A is one of the few model numbers that remained unchanged from before WW1 thru 1962. They had other letter suffixes, like “V” for example, that applied to a Vulcanite military mount.
In light of what you said re: changing model numbers, I have a YOW #52 and a Fossil #789 that are damn near identical; the Fossil has somewhat thinner bowl walls, but I think it may have been over-reamed. Did one of these shapes (I think the #789 may be older) replace the other, or are they, however slightly, two distinct pipes?
I have spent more hours trying to decipher pipe nomenclature than I care to think about.
Dunhill, Comoys, GBD, Barling, Peterson, Sassini......really many of the British made pipes do not have great records from the past.
I swear there were bored guys in the factories doing this just to mess with us future pipers.
I was lucky enough that the birth year 1971 Dunhill I have was very easy and very definitive to date.
And NO, I'm not dating my Dunhill....we broke up when it found out I was married!
Dunhill, Comoys, GBD, Barling, Peterson, Sassini......really many of the British made pipes do not have great records from the past.
I swear there were bored guys in the factories doing this just to mess with us future pipers.
I was lucky enough that the birth year 1971 Dunhill I have was very easy and very definitive to date.
And NO, I'm not dating my Dunhill....we broke up when it found out I was married!
Sig; Yeah, some of this is kind of nit-picky,,,it doesn't change the way the pipe smokes...but the further you go into these things, the further you go! Without talking to Mr Sasieni or Mr Comoy or Mr Barling we'll probably never really know and it's not really important in the general scheme of things, but sometime you luck out and (for instance) find a Ken Barnes or Pete Siegal who can satisfy your curiousity.
Because Barling had literally hundreds of model numbers, not all of which were in constant production, not all of which were included in its few catalogs, it would be much easier for me to answer your question if you uploaded some images, including complete profiles of the two pipes, a complete top view and any close ups of the nomenclature.
Unfortunately, there's no way that I can answer your question without images. What I can tell you is that there are so many subtle variations of shaping, including wall thickness, that contribute to separate model numbers, that it could go either way.
It just dawned on me that since I got both of these from Smoking Pipes I can post the measurements they show, viz; Barling #789 6.24L/1.97H/1.53OD/.87ID Barling #52 6.10L/2.04H/1.55OD/.82ID A pair of #251s I have from the same source: #251A (why not!) 6.35L/2.12H/1.62OD/.85ID
#251B 6.15L/2.24H/1.64OD/.79ID
I can't believe I'm putting you through all this or that I'm typing this, but here it is. It all shows nothing except that there was, as you said, subtle variances between shapes or even the same shapes.
#251B 6.15L/2.24H/1.64OD/.79ID
I can't believe I'm putting you through all this or that I'm typing this, but here it is. It all shows nothing except that there was, as you said, subtle variances between shapes or even the same shapes.
Wow, don't know what happened there: had it all laid out in legible fashion and it all scrunched together when I posted. Made that post even more ridiculous!
Good point: not when I got it, and no "M" that might indicate so. Thanks for wading through that mess. And I realize I've taken my own post far astray from the original question.
100% agree.
But, there are pipes which, on the resale market, can make 10x more depending on year, series, line, era....
There are Barlings that sell used for $25. And there are Barlings, with one faintly stamped letter, that are worth $300.
Same eith Dunhill, a single letter H stamped into the wood makes the pipe far more valuable.
This means nothing to me anymore. But when I used to buy pipe lots on ebay and random pipes at junk shops, flea markets and the like, I did a lot of research. More than once It paid off. But much of the time it was tedious and sometimes useless.
OK, sigh...
Looking at the numbers, there are slight differences in proportions, length, height, chamber diameter, etc, which may account for the different letters, but that's hard to establish without several of each available for measurement. There's no reference to the shank thicknesses, nor to whether they are all round shanked. I own a 252, which is the same as a 251, except that it has a saddle shaped stem rather than a tapered stem.
No two Barlings of the same model are going to be exactly alike, because they went through a "cut down" phase to remove minor imperfections, which would leave minute differences. But those differences had to be very minute so that the result still fit the library pattern for that model within tolerances. Otherwise, the shaping would continue until they hit another library pattern, were sandblasted, or tossed in the furnace.
I can tell you what the difference is between a 71A and a 71. The 71 is a bulldog and the 71A is a billiard. Yeah, I don't understand it either...
Looking at the numbers, there are slight differences in proportions, length, height, chamber diameter, etc, which may account for the different letters, but that's hard to establish without several of each available for measurement. There's no reference to the shank thicknesses, nor to whether they are all round shanked. I own a 252, which is the same as a 251, except that it has a saddle shaped stem rather than a tapered stem.
No two Barlings of the same model are going to be exactly alike, because they went through a "cut down" phase to remove minor imperfections, which would leave minute differences. But those differences had to be very minute so that the result still fit the library pattern for that model within tolerances. Otherwise, the shaping would continue until they hit another library pattern, were sandblasted, or tossed in the furnace.
I can tell you what the difference is between a 71A and a 71. The 71 is a bulldog and the 71A is a billiard. Yeah, I don't understand it either...
In the case of Comoy the C after the shape number generally denotes a variant with a slight bend (1/8) to the stem. If you look carefully through the 1951 catalog you will see numerous examples of a given shape available with either a straight or slightly bent vulcanite stem.
For Comoys and GBD, after the merger, they often added letter to shape numbers, seemingly without significance.
Yes, I was assuming that an appended letter to a standard number indicated a deviation of some sort (again, like how is a Comoy's 342B different from a 342; bigger? longer?) Anyway, I guess I should just assume that these markings meant something to the factory and leave it at that before it turns into an obsession. I thank all those who replied here for their input.
Thus is the getting of wisdom.
What one factory did to distinguish their inventorying of pipes, another would do differently.