Air Tight Containers

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RodneyPierce

Junior Member
Oct 9, 2020
50
247
Marion, IA
Plastic is permeable. That's the science. Glad it's permeable as well, just several magnitudes less than plastic. By the way, the primary issue I see is using boveda packs for long term humidity. Humidors aren't air tight, not even close. You don't want cigar storage in a perfectly air tight container, there's needs to be an exchange of atmospheres or the cigars will likely develop more.
I agree with that. I also think its a smart idea to open the lid once every week or so (assuming they are just being stored and not smoked from)
 
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rajangan

Preferred Member
Feb 14, 2018
501
1,293
Edmonton, AB
Plastic is permeable. That's the science.
Plastic is permeable, but the amount of moisture which can escape depends on the type and thickness of the plastic. Once you get past a certain point, the permeability becomes infinitesimal. The amount of passive loss from a hard container is so low that the only concern is with the lid seal. Otherwise, the liquid level in beverage and food containers would perceivably decrease over time.
 

cshubhra

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May 11, 2017
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Even in a hypothetical perfect air tight container - a cigar would gain / lose moisture.

Let’s say that the cigar is at a RH humidity x
The air in the container is at a RH y

Over time both the cigar and the air will lose/gain moisture till they are perfectly in equilibrium

x - d = y + d

That is why a cigar will have its moisture content changed, since it was not in equilibrium with the air inside the container to begin with.

The Boveda pack adds another entity to this equilibrium. The Boveda pack is engineered to force the equilibrium of the enclosed system to the printed RH on the pack as long as it is within its operating limits (60 g Boveda per 25 cigars)
 

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cshubhra

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May 11, 2017
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PS: One simple algebraic equation was used to illustrate the concept. The actual math is a little bit more convoluted.

1. The rate of moisture decay is an exponential decay function over time
2. It is also dependent on the available surface are to lose the moisture.

We can write a differential equation explaining the behavior but I have forgotten most of my calculus


Even in a hypothetical perfect air tight container - a cigar would gain / lose moisture.

Let’s say that the cigar is at a RH humidity x
The air in the container is at a RH y

Over time both the cigar and the air will lose/gain moisture till they are perfectly in equilibrium

x - d = y + d

That is why a cigar will have its moisture content changed, since it was not in equilibrium with the air inside the container to begin with.

The Boveda pack adds another entity to this equilibrium. The Boveda pack is engineered to force the equilibrium of the enclosed system to the printed RH on the pack as long as it is within its operating limits (60 g Boveda per 25 cigars)
 

RodneyPierce

Junior Member
Oct 9, 2020
50
247
Marion, IA
Even in a hypothetical perfect air tight container - a cigar would gain / lose moisture.

Let’s say that the cigar is at a RH humidity x
The air in the container is at a RH y

Over time both the cigar and the air will lose/gain moisture till they are perfectly in equilibrium

x - d = y + d

That is why a cigar will have its moisture content changed, since it was not in equilibrium with the air inside the container to begin with.

The Boveda pack adds another entity to this equilibrium. The Boveda pack is engineered to force the equilibrium of the enclosed system to the printed RH on the pack as long as it is within its operating limits (60 g Boveda per 25 cigars)
This.
 

hoosierpipeguy

Preferred Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,357
9,260
Here's the bottom line IMHO. If you have a few cigars you want to store short term, a tupperdor is just fine. If you're building a collection of premium cigars you want to age, you'd benefit by purchasing one or more humidors lined in Spanish cedar with quality humidification devices. Or a coolerdor with Spanish cedar with a quality humidification device. You can buy a functional humidor that will hold 75 to 100 cigars for $200 or less.

Most decent cigars sell for $8 and up. That would mean you have $800 worth of cigars if you have 100. A $200 investment seems reasonable and warranted then to store them properly. I've bought, stored and smoked over 20,000 cigars in my lifetime, my experience confirms this as well as the opinion of most so called experts.
 

rajangan

Preferred Member
Feb 14, 2018
501
1,293
Edmonton, AB
Here's the bottom line IMHO. If you have a few cigars you want to store short term, a tupperdor is just fine. If you're building a collection of premium cigars you want to age, you'd benefit by purchasing one or more humidors lined in Spanish cedar with quality humidification devices. Or a coolerdor with Spanish cedar with a quality humidification device. You can buy a functional humidor that will hold 75 to 100 cigars for $200 or less.

Most decent cigars sell for $8 and up. That would mean you have $800 worth of cigars if you have 100. A $200 investment seems reasonable and warranted then to store them properly. I've bought, stored and smoked over 20,000 cigars in my lifetime, my experience confirms this as well as the opinion of most so called experts.
Let's say your only wood options were pine, poplar, or oak, what would you do?
 

Worknman

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2019
393
793
Here's the bottom line IMHO. If you have a few cigars you want to store short term, a tupperdor is just fine. If you're building a collection of premium cigars you want to age, you'd benefit by purchasing one or more humidors lined in Spanish cedar with quality humidification devices. Or a coolerdor with Spanish cedar with a quality humidification device. You can buy a functional humidor that will hold 75 to 100 cigars for $200 or less.

Most decent cigars sell for $8 and up. That would mean you have $800 worth of cigars if you have 100. A $200 investment seems reasonable and warranted then to store them properly. I've bought, stored and smoked over 20,000 cigars in my lifetime, my experience confirms this as well as the opinion of most so called experts.
Is this because they age better in a humidor with the extra air circulation or is there something about the cedar that makes them better? Or both for that matter?
 
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cosmicfolklore

Preferred Member
Aug 9, 2013
21,512
11,274
Helena, Alabama
Let's say your only wood options were pine, poplar, or oak, what would you do?
Not too long ago, when I was shopping for my first humidor, I picked up that the reason cedar is “popular” For humidors is that it has something in the natural oils that prevents mold and mildew. Pine or oak is going to break down and mold. But, if no there choices existed, I’d go for oak and wax really well, or sealed to prevent break down, or oxidation. That’s my novice take on it.
 
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hoosierpipeguy

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Jan 28, 2018
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Is this because they age better in a humidor with the extra air circulation or is there something about the cedar that makes them better? Or both for that matter?
Spanish Cedar is reasonably pourous and absorbs a lot of moisture. So it helps keep the humidity levels stabilized. That's why you stabilize a new humidor by wiping the inside with distilled water a few times.
 

RodneyPierce

Junior Member
Oct 9, 2020
50
247
Marion, IA
Not too long ago, when I was shopping for my first humidor, I picked up that the reason cedar is “popular” For humidors is that it has something in the natural oils that prevents mold and mildew. Pine or oak is going to break down and mold. But, if no there choices existed, I’d go for oak and wax really well, or sealed to prevent break down, or oxidation. That’s my novice take on it.
The whole original reason to use cedar was because it naturally defends against tobacco beatles. They do not like Cedar. Hence why we still, to this day see CC's shipped with Cedar or in Cedar boxes.

And then obviously above all, as stated it's very porous.

It's not as much of an issue with NC's as they are refrigerated after rolling, prior to shipping.
 
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jerseysam

Member
Mar 24, 2019
261
2,100
Liberty Township. OH
The whole original reason to use cedar was because it naturally defends against tobacco beatles. They do not like Cedar. Hence why we still, to this day see CC's shipped with Cedar or in Cedar boxes.

And then obviously above all, as stated it's very porous.
...as folks like Rodney has written, Spanish Cedar has traditionally been used because it mixes degrees of porousness (ability to absorb and maintain humidly without warping on rotting) and natural mold/insect repellant. It's not magic....it can get mold, it can get beetles, it can dry out. But it's a unique wood that way.

I share this for pure entertainment/Sunday night gab purposes only......as someone who has bought/smoked thousands of cigars and had five-figure custom walk-in humidors installed in my prior house....the secret sauce is how many cigars do you want to store. I think Hoosierpipe made this comment earlier.....cigars aren't magic and not honestly as fussy as they are made out to be. There's a lot of ritual/image/lore magic BS out there that's not really harmful...but also way more involved than it needs to be. In my personal opinion space+airflow is the key. Cigars don't care if they are getting humidity from a Boveda pack or a fancy automated fan+humdification gauge system.....distilled water is distilled water. If you have 10-25 cigars.....a plastic-fantastic cigar jar and Boveda pack is fine. You'll be opening the lid and stirring up the airflow. But if you have 300+ cigars you want in a central storage option.....you've got to keep your ariflow moving in a large space to maintain RH and not have pockets of swamp sticks and pockets of tinder. That's where active/fan systems come in.

Again, crazy Sunday talk only.....if you have a humidor/container with the proper flow/humidification-control element Spanish Cedar is not necessary. It doesn't hurt, it's nice....but there are materials today that won't promote mold/off-flavors. Spanish Cedar is nice in that it can naturally soak up or exude some extra humidity, so as long as someone wipes it down/conditions it on first use (acclimate before putting sticks in) it's still a real good material in those 50-100 count humidors for most folks. Where I'd be very careful though is using woods that can seep resins/rot/mold with exposure to 60%+ RH over time....and that's a lot of them.
 

hoosierpipeguy

Preferred Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,357
9,260
...as folks like Rodney has written, Spanish Cedar has traditionally been used because it mixes degrees of porousness (ability to absorb and maintain humidly without warping on rotting) and natural mold/insect repellant. It's not magic....it can get mold, it can get beetles, it can dry out. But it's a unique wood that way.

I share this for pure entertainment/Sunday night gab purposes only......as someone who has bought/smoked thousands of cigars and had five-figure custom walk-in humidors installed in my prior house....the secret sauce is how many cigars do you want to store. I think Hoosierpipe made this comment earlier.....cigars aren't magic and not honestly as fussy as they are made out to be. There's a lot of ritual/image/lore magic BS out there that's not really harmful...but also way more involved than it needs to be. In my personal opinion space+airflow is the key. Cigars don't care if they are getting humidity from a Boveda pack or a fancy automated fan+humdification gauge system.....distilled water is distilled water. If you have 10-25 cigars.....a plastic-fantastic cigar jar and Boveda pack is fine. You'll be opening the lid and stirring up the airflow. But if you have 300+ cigars you want in a central storage option.....you've got to keep your ariflow moving in a large space to maintain RH and not have pockets of swamp sticks and pockets of tinder. That's where active/fan systems come in.

Again, crazy Sunday talk only.....if you have a humidor/container with the proper flow/humidification-control element Spanish Cedar is not necessary. It doesn't hurt, it's nice....but there are materials today that won't promote mold/off-flavors. Spanish Cedar is nice in that it can naturally soak up or exude some extra humidity, so as long as someone wipes it down/conditions it on first use (acclimate before putting sticks in) it's still a real good material in those 50-100 count humidors for most folks. Where I'd be very careful though is using woods that can seep resins/rot/mold with exposure to 60%+ RH over time....and that's a lot of them.
Great post
 
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samuelgawith01

Preferred Member
Apr 2, 2018
1,517
8,342
Forget plastic,forget glass.Get yourself a Davidoff hardwood humidor.When you close the lid,you should feel an air cushion as it seats.Any good humidor will be like this.Pricey,but will last your lifetime.
 

pantsBoots

Senior Member
Jul 21, 2020
438
922
Ain't no place I'd rather be
If you store cigars in an airtight tupperdor or mason jar, why is it suggested to add a humidifier such as boveda? Like pipe tobacco in jars, it seems to me the cigars would still retain their moisture without the packs if they're in an airtight container.
Airtight is great if the cigars are at your target RH i.e.: they've been acclimated to a specific RH. I have a cooler that sits dead nuts at 67RH (according to the Western Digital hygrometer). The smell inside is strong and heavenly, but the smell is not noticeable when the lid is closed. Is it airtight? Probably not, but it is damned close as I find the hygrometer creeping down only once every year or 2. I add some water to the beads and it goes back up to 67 and stays there.

In my experience, the less amount of air exchange during the aging process, the better.
 

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