Adding Denver to The List of Places I Won't Visit

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mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,433
Many rural counties don't have hospitals, at all. Some hospitals in rural counties offer only limited services. Just because they are surrounded by open country doesn't make the problems less. I think the city/rural/suburban issues are inter-related.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,602
14,666
to generalize and boycott an entire city for one "article" is somewhat ridiculous.

It's not just one article ... there have been numerous such stories from many independent sources for quite some time now in a number of cities that are managed in a certain way. If you or anyone else wants to visit there or live there, I couldn't care less...I'm just saying I won't. There are also entire states I won't go to: CA, NJ, NY to name a few.

I was not going to bump this thread, but since it has been I will add some other final thoughts after having some time to reflect...I'm genuinely surprised at some of the responses, and find them interesting in what they reveal regarding the mindset that either creates or supports these types of policies.

For example, the analogies made such as a pool fence to protect children, or lawn maintenance, trimming trees, etc. These comparisons are portraying the people who do these things (defecating and discarding drug needles on someone's doorstep or a sidewalk, etc) as innocents who should not be held accountable. They're no different than little children or nature itself.

So as incredible as it seems, what we have here are people shitting on someone else's property, and the city forcing the property/business owner to clean it up or be fined...or both...while doing nothing to the shitters and needle throwers.

And this is considered reasonable and acceptable to many people now. Boggles the mind.

Here's a novel idea...how about the city forcing the shitters and needle throwers to clean up their own mess?

I know...that's crazy talk. Even some "Boomers" don't think that way.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,602
14,666
At least San Francisco has a Poop Patrol LOL ... can you imagine this problem being so bad that such a thing is necessary?

And you just gotta love the "snapcrap app" LOL:

Residents are uploading photos to the “Snapcrap” app to alert the "poop patrol"

San Francisco has a 'Poop Patrol' to deal with its feces problem, and workers make more than $184,000 a year in salary and benefits
 

cacooper

Starting to Get Obsessed
Jul 28, 2009
224
72
Parker, CO
We moved to Denver in ‘05 and moved out in ‘16. When we moved there, CO had a Republican governor, fairly conservative legislature, 30 round magazines were legal and recreational marijuana was illegal. In the 11 years we were there, all of that flipped 180 degrees and the slow, steady decline started, necessitating the move. A decade of leftist democrat rule, similar to CA, OR and WA has resulted in the problems that have manifested today. A good proportion of the “homeless” population are “pot tourists”. Bums that arrive during nice weather, hang around the 16th street mall in LoDo, panhandle for money, then hit the local pot dispensary, get high, pass out in an alley, wake up and do it all over again. It’s nearly epidemic. The whole downtown area stinks like marijuana and personally I found it disgusting, nauseating even. I used to frequent LoDo quite often because we had a pipe club that would meet at the Celtic, but stopped after the pot law passed. There were always panhandlers around, but not nearly in the numbers now. Pretty sad, and it’s amazing the degradation in 10 short years.
 

ron123

Part of the Furniture Now
Jan 28, 2015
541
984
Park Ridge, IL
Shit storms are brewing in too many bigger cities...including here in Shitcago. Blame it on what you want, but it really comes down to nothing changes then nothing changes. Throwing more of the policies that got you there in the first place doesn't make sense to me, but to many, apparently it does.
 

unadoptedlamp

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 19, 2014
742
1,368
These issues are extremely complicated and sadly, mostly related to addiction. For example, cacooper's experience fits the timeline of the opioid crisis almost perfectly. It's not an isolated event.

Timeline._Overdose_deaths_involving_opioids%2C_United_States.gif


It's easy to point a finger at perceived ne'er-do-wells and yell shame. It won't fix the problem though. Neither will locking them up (that's also going to cost you a shitload of money), withholding services, or even refusing to visit the areas where they are. Scratch hard enough, and you'll find a junkie very close to home. Not many people want to talk about that though, so the problems are often hidden from view when it can be done.

Uncovering their story requires a little more effort, but if you can stand to take the time and listen without judgement, you'll hear a wide range of heart breaking stories and challenges that are extreme (even before the addiction).

In fact, a number of members of this forum are former and current alcoholics. Who knows how many are addicted to opioids? I'm sure there are some.

There are always some true deadbeats mixed in. Those are the ones most people get joy out of pointing to, but they don't represent the majority, from my experience.

I've personally heard stories about child abuse victims, domestic abuse victims, people who were addicted from prescribed drugs, single bad decisions that turned into a chronic life of misery, and all kinds of other stories. I'm not absolving them of responsibility, but the truth is often more messy than we want to believe.

In fact, not long ago, in my "upper class" neighbourhood in North America, a young teenager overdosed and died from what was supposedly a hidden addiction. It started a commission, but only because he was privileged. He was prescribed opioids for an athletic injury and got hooked. It's not uncommon, and it can happen to anyone. The less money you have, the closer you are to skid row in any downtown where it becomes much more visible -like taking a dump in a store front. Anyone who has wrestled with addiction could tell you a horror story, if you take the time to listen. You might still think they are worthless, but at least you will have some more understanding for what led to it.

The junkies you see in downtown cores (they are also in suburbia as well, but more easily hidden while finances last) are not "addicted" to marijuana.

Let's be honest.

Anyone who has ever smoked a joint knows that you don't end up on the street, shitting in a flower bed because of it. Let alone passing out. Alcohol can easily do that, but marijuana? That's tough to do. That's straight out of movies like Reefer Madness. It's about as addictive as using sage in your cooking.

The reasons why these problems exist very likely (I would say almost entirely) have nothing to do with local policy. The local policies are often a municipality doing the best they can (or think they can) to deal with an enormous problem with roots that are a tangled mess of a system much bigger than their city bounds. Cities are not equipped to deal with these problems. They don't have the money, nor the true power. Easy to blame them, but then if you look behind the curtain and see what their options really are, you'll find no easy solution.

Being a city planner, particularly for a large urban area, is a very difficult job with a lot of moving parts. A horrible job to have, really. I have no skin in the game for any city mentioned in this thread. I just happen to know some city planners, and I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the problems look so simple, until you have to deal with them and find out all of the knock on effects of every decision being made.

Some things look like a complete bonehead move (and maybe they are in cases - I can't comment on any of the examples in this thread because I know nothing about their level of planning), but sometimes, there was also a good reason with some really weird side effects. Looks so simple, but as in almost everything in life, it is never the case.

It just makes great fodder for the armchair critic.

I don't have the answers (no single person or ideology will), but I do recognize the complexity, which is vast. It seems we may be destined for it, as complex systems seem to trend toward chaos. Civilization and governance may not be an exception, as things grow too big for any one city, let alone person, to deal with it all.

Hopefully there is some optimism somewhere. It's a very sad tale.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,602
14,666
@unadoptedlamp

A number of valid points, but none of that is the issue IMO.

The issue is the city is fining a business owner for not picking up the shit and needles dumped there by vagrants. Plain and simple. And total bullshit.

As for MJ, I agree that the average MJ user is no more likely to do such things than the average alcohol user.

But again...not the issue.

I don't give a shit who's doing it...make them clean it up...not the business/property owner.

If someone keeps shitting on your porch every day and dumping needles there, are you just going to keep cleaning it up, or are you going to call the cops and expect them to do something about it?

SF, for example, is paying people huge salaries with tax dollars to clean up after these people. If the residents don't mind that, well, then that's their problem. But either the vagrants doing it or a county prisoner chain-gang ought to be cleaning it up IMO.
 
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unadoptedlamp

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 19, 2014
742
1,368
I agree brian. If I were that business owner, I would also be supremely annoyed. Beyond words.

I just think the problems are much more complicated. For example, if the city then accepted responsibility and decided to clean it up (maybe they should), it may have side effects that they can foresee, or not. Maybe their budget can't handle it. Maybe they don't have the staff. Maybe it's not a critical issue yet (just great headlines). Maybe it's a lot of complicated moving parts that look very simple from where I'm standing. It's really hard to tell.

I'm not letting anyone off the hook. But I think it's all related. This is a side effect of problems that are occurring on a scale that is extraordinary. And extraordinarily hard to deal with.
 
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