1895 Birmingham Hallmark Mistaken for 1876

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pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
605
Just FYI, if you're thinking of bidding on a pipe from "1876" it's probably actually from 1895 - still very old, but not one of the oldest briar pipes in existence.

For example, this one:


An 1876 date letter would have a round or oval cartouche (background), whereas the one on this pipe has the shape you'd expect for 1895.

Screen Shot 2020-12-31 at 10.08.38 PM.pngScreen Shot 2020-12-31 at 10.09.14 PM.pngScreen Shot 2020-12-31 at 10.12.14 PM.png
 

ChuckMijo

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 26, 2020
775
2,348
That’s one old extremely clean pipe. The Stem is upsides down from the Pics.
 

greeneyes

Lifer
Jun 5, 2018
2,125
12,189
I don't believe I've ever seen a hallmarked pipe with the Sovereign's Head mark for duty paid. I ought to find out why and whether I just haven't seen one, or whether pipes didn't pay the duty for some reason.
 
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gripsie

Might Stick Around
Dec 10, 2010
89
17
Hamburg, Germany
Actually, I'm a little unsure about the stem as well. With a screw tenon I even doubt it can be turned further 180 degrees to make it flush fit. I feel the new owner could be having to deal with a stem that's perhaps even wabbling around in the shank a little/ not fitting very tight. I'm somehow not 100% sure if stem and screw tenon are all original in the first place. But neither I'm sure they aren't. All things the seller should be asked.

I'm also not really having largest amount of trust in this seller. A year ago or so I was bidding on a chubby billard, Peterson Patent from the early 20th century. It was somehow a risky bid because the pictures left it unclear in how good condition the tobacco chamber was and there were some hints from the outside of the pipe that it might be heavily smoked. I got outbid, and the pipe was re-offered by this seller a month later. The rim was topped though. Heavily. At least by 3-5mm? What was a billard once was sort of a pot now. The descripition didn't say a word about this issue. I asked the seller via private message and he replied the pipe was all original... :rolleyes:

Cheers, Eddy
 
Dec 10, 2013
2,316
2,942
Nijmegen, the Netherlands
Actually, I'm a little unsure about the stem as well. With a screw tenon I even doubt it can be turned further 180 degrees to make it flush fit. I feel the new owner could be having to deal with a stem that's perhaps even wabbling around in the shank a little/ not fitting very tight. I'm somehow not 100% sure if stem and screw tenon are all original in the first place. But neither I'm sure they aren't. All things the seller should be asked.

I'm also not really having largest amount of trust in this seller. A year ago or so I was bidding on a chubby billard, Peterson Patent from the early 20th century. It was somehow a risky bid because the pictures left it unclear in how good condition the tobacco chamber was and there were some hints from the outside of the pipe that it might be heavily smoked. I got outbid, and the pipe was re-offered by this seller a month later. The rim was topped though. Heavily. At least by 3-5mm? What was a billard once was sort of a pot now. The descripition didn't say a word about this issue. I asked the seller via private message and he replied the pipe was all original... :rolleyes:

Cheers, Eddy
Odd ; Gary and Max are very serious people with a reknown, good rep. bussiness.
Their comm. is always top notch.
A most happy New Year to you all.
Be safe and smoke in peace.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,833
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
I'd say definitely not the 1901 b. I think pitchfork is correct with the 1895 v. :)
Take another look. The letter is quite clearly closed across the top, forming a “b”, or a weird looking semi capital “D”, and not a “v”. Don’t be too orthodox about the letter shape in the lists. There’s plenty of room for variation without going to an Old English. We’ll agree to disagree.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,833
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Actually, I'm a little unsure about the stem as well. With a screw tenon I even doubt it can be turned further 180 degrees to make it flush fit. I feel the new owner could be having to deal with a stem that's perhaps even wabbling around in the shank a little/ not fitting very tight. I'm somehow not 100% sure if stem and screw tenon are all original in the first place. But neither I'm sure they aren't. All things the seller should be asked.

I'm also not really having largest amount of trust in this seller. A year ago or so I was bidding on a chubby billard, Peterson Patent from the early 20th century. It was somehow a risky bid because the pictures left it unclear in how good condition the tobacco chamber was and there were some hints from the outside of the pipe that it might be heavily smoked. I got outbid, and the pipe was re-offered by this seller a month later. The rim was topped though. Heavily. At least by 3-5mm? What was a billard once was sort of a pot now. The descripition didn't say a word about this issue. I asked the seller via private message and he replied the pipe was all original... :rolleyes:

Cheers, Eddy
I won’t buy from this seller. Ever. To find out why, do a Google search for a thread entitled “Separated At Birth”.
 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
605
Take another look. The letter is quite clearly closed across the top, forming a “b”, or a weird looking semi capital “D”, and not a “v”. Don’t be too orthodox about the letter shape in the lists. There’s plenty of room for variation without going to an Old English. We’ll agree to disagree.

In practice, especially sometimes with some wear, the 1895 "v" often ends up looking closed at the top, thus resembling a "b." I've run into this confusion on a number of occasions and it's one of the reasons I took a closer look at the date letter. Also the seraph (top left) on the letter clearly resembles the curved seraph of the 1895. Finally, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the cartouche is clearly straight, not notched as the 1901 would be.

BTW, this is all in good fun and yes, we can agree to disagree.
 

ashdigger

Lifer
Jul 30, 2016
11,378
70,055
60
Vegas Baby!!!
Here’s the read (Jesse) Sablebrush is referring to.

 
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sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,833
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
In practice, especially sometimes with some wear, the 1895 "v" often ends up looking closed at the top, thus resembling a "b." I've run into this confusion on a number of occasions and it's one of the reasons I took a closer look at the date letter. Also the seraph (top left) on the letter clearly resembles the curved seraph of the 1895. Finally, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the cartouche is clearly straight, not notched as the 1901 would be.

BTW, this is all in good fun and yes, we can agree to disagree.
You may well be correct. I’ll take another look.
 

dmcmtk

Lifer
Aug 23, 2013
3,672
1,685
Here’s the read (Jesse) Sablebrush is referring to.

Fun, and informative thread to re-read, it had me laughing outloud. :)
 

mau1

Lifer
Jan 5, 2018
1,124
837
Ontario, Canada
In practice, especially sometimes with some wear, the 1895 "v" often ends up looking closed at the top, thus resembling a "b." I've run into this confusion on a number of occasions and it's one of the reasons I took a closer look at the date letter. Also the seraph (top left) on the letter clearly resembles the curved seraph of the 1895. Finally, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the cartouche is clearly straight, not notched as the 1901 would be.

BTW, this is all in good fun and yes, we can agree to disagree.
Sablebrush and pitchfork were spot on in pointing out the round/oval shield of 1876 and pitchfork is correct in noting that the bottom edge of the shield is clearly straight. I would say 1895 as well but it is odd that the V is closed at the top. It doesn't look like wear to me. Wear would make sense but where is there wear when you compare it to the rest of the stamp? Everything looks very sharp to me. Perhaps it's an odd case of the stamp itself having a defect? If we were able to compare stamps on other pipes for this year and this carver we might solve the issue but of course that is just wishful thinking. A very interesting discussion.
 
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sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,833
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
In practice, especially sometimes with some wear, the 1895 "v" often ends up looking closed at the top, thus resembling a "b." I've run into this confusion on a number of occasions and it's one of the reasons I took a closer look at the date letter. Also the seraph (top left) on the letter clearly resembles the curved seraph of the 1895. Finally, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the cartouche is clearly straight, not notched as the 1901 would be.

BTW, this is all in good fun and yes, we can agree to disagree.
Yep, you're spot on about the cartouche. I stand corrected.
 
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