Smoke Temperature

[ashdigger]

This thread is exactly why I abandoned my thoughts of testing.

Its way more productive and interesting second guessing and talking shit.

 

[Sgetz]

this is all high school physics, chemistry, and biology. the actual numbers don't matter because we have enough information to know that the rate of energy transfer is orders of magnitude too low to cause a thermal burn.

air doesn't hold much heat, the heat content in the smoke is mostly from the water. and air is very poor at transferring heat to another surface, much less a wet surface like the inside of your mouth (hot air actually cools the surface due to evaporation). the most efficient way to transfer heat from the smoke would be to have the steam condense on the linings of your mouth as condensation releases a great deal of heat and water-water heat transfer is quite efficient.

a bowl of tobacco from a group 4ish pipe produces roughly 8-10 drops of water. you can measure this with a good scale and meerschaum with a coloring bowl or with a gourd calabash. as steam, that's a fair amount of energy, roughly as much as a few sips of hot coffee. but as anyone who's smoked a clay or meerschaum pipe can attest this steam condenses in the shank , so quite a bit less of that steam makes it to your mouth. and what is left is trickling into your mouth over the course of the bowl, say 45 mins, so the rate of heat transfer is quite low. meanwhile the blood vessels in your mouth and tongue are quite efficient at moving heat away, as evidenced by the fact that you can safely drink an entire cup of coffee containing several hundred times the energy in those 8-10 drops of water in only a few minutes. the argument that smoke will burn your mouth is essentially an argument that the amount of water equivalent to a small sip of coffee - sipped over a 45 minute period - will burn your mouth.

where the heat does matter is that temperature affects the rate of chemical reactions, and this is likely where the effect of "cooling the smoke" actually matters. the hotter the alkalines in the smoke are when they hit your tongue the faster they will react with the tissue and cause damage. but that's still a chemical burn, not a thermal burn.

coffee, is fairly acidic. our bodies can tolerate acids *much* better than they can tolerate bases so hot coffee tends to not cause chemical burns. pipe tobacco has a tendency to produce alkaline smoke, but our bodies do not tolerate alkalinity at all, and the warmer that alkaline chemical is - even if it isn't hot enough to burn - the more aggressively it will react with our tissues. if the reaction is slow enough, either due to the pH levels being within the acceptable range, or due to the temperature being low enough that the reaction is slow enough that our saliva or drink of choice can wash it away before it does much damage then we will claim it "doesn't bite". if it's a fast aggressive reaction then we say "yup, that's mac baren".

I agree that you have explained , at a high school level, your theory. I was after a reference to some sort of research as real life is often different to our ideas. Or perhaps someone on here has actually done it !

The buffering power of saliva has been well researched by stephan et al. Also by Neil Jenkins. So the alkaline theory may not be totally correct

 

[Chasing Embers]

Excellent. So are the pipe smokers with no tongue bite drinking something cool or has their tongue been damaged? Or is there a technique?

I rarely drink anything when smoking but make it a point not to produce clouds when smoking and no tongue bite. I've never gotten it from any of Mac Baren's blends either.

 

[mparker762]

The buffering power of saliva has been well researched by stephan et al. Also by Neil Jenkins. So the alkaline theory may not be totally correct

the buffering power of saliva is heavily biased towards acids, not bases.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

So this should mean smoking a pipe would counteract the acidic nature of most sugary drinks and we would end up at pH neutral.
Smoke a pipe and save your teeth!
(Apparently Pepsi and Coke are a pH of 2.5, almost the same as Lemon Juice! Root Beer is the least acidic at pH 4.5)

Very informative.

 

[Charlie718]

If tongue bite is a chemical burn how come it doesn’t effect the whole mouth evenly instead of a specific spot on the tongue. Also why doesn’t a cigarette with incredibly dry tobac cause tongue bite even if power smoked to the point of burning the filter.

 

[Charlie718]

I thought it was that 212deg boiling water at 0 psig / 14.7 psia needs an additional 970BTUs to become steam and when that steam condenses back to a liquid it needs to transfer that 970BTU somewhere (energy can’t be destroyed only transferred). With water gaining one deg for every 1BTU added to it that enough energy to boil any water in a skin cell real quick. Basically the theory of Latent Heat vs Sensible Heat.

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I rarely drink anything when smoking but make it a point not to produce clouds when smoking and no tongue bite. I've never gotten it from any of Mac Baren's blends either.

I hope to source some Macbaren locally tomorrow. If not, something with more Latakia

 

[Charlie718]

I thought it was that 212deg boiling water at 0 psig / 14.7 psia needs an additional 970BTUs to become steam and when that steam condenses back to a liquid it needs to transfer that 970BTU somewhere (energy can’t be destroyed only transferred). With water gaining one deg for every 1BTU added to it that enough energy to boil any water in a skin cell real quick. Basically the theory of Latent Heat vs Sensible Heat.

Fell like I should have added boiling water is 212deg and 212BTUs where steam starts at 212deg and 1182BTUs. There is A LOT more latent heat in steam then a boiling drink.

 

[puff_not_snuff]

In the sun or shade?

 

[niblicck]

I thought about rigging some thermocouples to a beater pipe I have. But I got busy, lazy or lost interest.

Problem with using a thermocouple would be the delay in change of temperature rate. A RTD would be better use in measuring, they respond faster to a change in temperature rate.

 

[Charlie718]

Problem with using a thermocouple would be the delay in change of temperature rate. A RTD would be better use in measuring, they respond faster to a change in temperature rate.

Temp is only part of the equation, that’s sensible heat. No one ever thinks about the latent heat. Sensible heat = easily felt and measured / Latent heat = not felt and has to be calculated.

Latent Heat Summary – The Physics Hypertextbook

When a material changes phase, it absorbs or releases latent heat. It does this without changing temperature. The equation that describes this is Q = mL.

physics.info

 

[Charlie718]

So even though the temp of steam will not change as it displaces those 970 extra BTUs, those BTUs will cause the water in your skin cells to rise in temp until the water boils which is what a thermal burn is

 

[niblicck]

Temp is only part of the equation, that’s sensible heat. No one ever thinks about the latent heat. Sensible heat = easily felt and measured / Latent heat = not felt and has to be calculated.

Latent Heat Summary – The Physics Hypertextbook

When a material changes phase, it absorbs or releases latent heat. It does this without changing temperature. The equation that describes this is Q = mL.

physics.info

Yeah I was just saying a better way to measure temperature was a device called an RTD. I also know where there is smoke there must be fire.

 

[Sgetz]

If tongue bite is a chemical burn how come it doesn’t effect the whole mouth evenly instead of a specific spot on the tongue. Also why doesn’t a cigarette with incredibly dry tobac cause tongue bite even if power smoked to the point of burning the filter.

An interesting observation. In my experience cigars are free from bite also. But they are often held at a relative humidity of 70% so are not dry at all. So if you smoke some pipe tobacco in the form of a rolly v,as some do, do you get tongue bite? Maybe someone who does this can tell us?