By Her Logic, White People's Use of Tobacco is Offensive?!?!?

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Mar 31, 2014
385
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So, I'm an archaeologist for a Native American tribe out here in LA (I won't name it for the sake of my privacy and their's). And no, I'm not Native American. I was talking to one of my coworkers, who is also not Native American, about how there must be a way for California tribes to sell tobacco without being forced to charge state tax to charge state tax to non-Native Americans, which is the case out here in CA. CA wants to gets the biggest piece of every pie it possibly can. As a smoker in a state with very high tobacco tax, this would be good for me. And, it would also create much needed revenue for tribes who don't want to or can't go down the casino route.
My coworker said that for a tribe to sell something which it considers sacred as a commodity to non-Native Americans would be an absolutely disgusting thing that she would never be apart of. Ok, there's a few things wrong with this.
1. We use terms like "tribes" and "Natives" to make communication easy. But, tribes should be spoken of by name, not generalized as one massive culture. This is precisely what she did by assuming that all tribes consider tobacco a spiritual substance.

2. Most tribes have many uses for smoking tobacco, not just spiritual (political, recreational, commerce, solidarity etc.)

3. Corn has spiritual qualities to a number of tribes. Would she seek to stop the sale of corn to white people? No! Her logic is inconsistent.
She then said that she only had a problem with unhealthy substances. So, what she's doing is holding tobacco in high regard for having sacred qualities and then spitting on it for being harmful to one's health. What I think is really going on here is that she is against tobacco use on emotional grounds (concern for the health of OTHERS) and would not like to see access to tobacco eased.
Your thoughts?

 
Jan 8, 2013
1,189
3
Your coworker, like so many these days, is suffering from ignorance and environmental conditioning. She has grown up in this modern bs culture of tobacco as evil, and unhealthy. Being healthy is all the rage these days, if your not a hundred pound, organic food eating, natural fabric wearing, gas saving, yoga loving neo-hippy, you don't fit in anymore. That is her environmental conditioning. In her ignorance she fell for the bs. Sadly, that is the way the world is going. Chocolate and tobacco were luxuries 150 years ago. 50 years ago they were household staples. Now, we are all pushing towards a greener, more active, healthy world where indulgences have no place. Soon, the bible will be retranslated, and it will be discovered that all indulgence is a ticket to Lucifer's palace.
Sorry, I kinda went off there. I have nothing personal against the green, healthy people of the world, and I have no problem with them doing what makes them happy. That includes salad smoothies and other abominations. I just wish they could extend the same courtesy to those of us who still prefer big blocks to hybrids, meat to veggies and tobacco smoke to hot yoga sweat fumes.

 

buster

Lifer
Sep 1, 2011
1,305
3
How do the elders feel about it?
I get that she has ,"opinions" that seem to not jive. I mean she is trying to look at it from modern culture and an native religious point of view? Still I may or may not want to debate her on the finer points of modern tobacco hypocrisy? That would depend on my mood and her personality.

 
Well, to be fair, just because Native Americans did something doesn't exactly make it a redeeming quality. I can respect the lost cultures of this race, and I can respect their ways; however, I can do without some of the human sacrifice parts some tribes held. And, I can do without the scapling some did, also.
Sure, I loooooooooove tobacco. However, I can see where an anti-tobacco person could respect the Native use of tobacco, while not appreciating the substance themselves. Many of them used other drugs that I'm not crazy about either.
Just a perspective.

 
Mar 31, 2014
385
1
The elders of this tribe are fine with selling tobacco. Actually, the tribe used to own a newsstand that sold cigars and cigarettes without ethnic discrimination. It went out of business, which had nothing to do with tribal opposition. She's definitely not defending the tribe.

 

andrew

Lifer
Feb 13, 2013
3,043
402
Dealing with the Indians is a very tricky thing, like my brother and his wife live up in nunavut, and the indians up there even though constantly you hear about them not having good food, well they won't eat halibut fish. Why? Because there's no history of the indians eating halibut, so it must be bad for them. So up there you can get like 25kg box of halibut for something like 50$. It's insane. I took a native studies course once and suggested that the indians should write down their stories, because we were discussing how they've lost their culture etc... So I suggested well us white people write stuff down, that way it doesn't get lost. Well I got an earful about how that wasn't the indian way, and in my mind I thought well it ain't my culture that's lost. Basically I just let them go about their way of life and frankly I don't care what happens to them. It may sound harsh or mean, but you'd really have to live in Canada to understand. If there was good money to be made then suddenly it would be "kosher" to sell tobacco to the white man, but the indians don't farm so they don't grow tobacco. Basically I've come to see it as well you should of moved along with society, every culture has faced diversity. Then I'll go into a rant about Soviet Russia and Gulags and the jews and the holocaust and ask why their culture is still alive. You can close this thread now.

 
Mar 31, 2014
385
1
Haha! No. She's cool with casinos.
And cosmic, you do have a point about being able to respect something without condoning it. On the subject of scalping, it was not just Native who did that. A history professor showed me a copy of an old document from the 1700s of the British crown offering colonials different prices for different Native scalps. A Native male's scalp was worth the most and a child's was worth the least, with a female scalp somewhere in between. Sure, the child's scalp was worth the least, but they still thought to put a price on it. Erie stuff.

 

dread

Lifer
Jun 19, 2013
1,617
9
This thread's title is offensive. Why does this forum always get into race?

 

lochinvar

Lifer
Oct 22, 2013
1,687
1,634
I guess by this rationale the Scots and Irish should only sell whisky to .....wait....MORE FOR ME!!!!!

 

zekest

Lifer
Apr 1, 2013
1,136
9
The usage of "white people" is offensive.
Unless you are from Portland, Oregon, you are not white, but some shade of tan.
Its Racist!

 

necron99

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 4, 2014
268
0
Its amazing how many "tribe members" really know nothing of the culture and heritage of the "tribe" they "belong to".

 

sailorjeremy

Can't Leave
Feb 25, 2014
419
1
Virginia
I can and can't see how the title could be offensive. However, I do think that the title does not suit the post very well seeing as it is more so in relation to the opinion of your coworker whom is not Native American. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's racist, but it is a poor choice of words for a title and could be perceived as being offensive.
Not that that is out of the way, if she wanted to argue about health aspects of selling tobacco then one could argue that she is being somewhat of a hypocrite for supporting casinos. The increasing casino business enables people who suffer from pathological and compulsive gambling. This accounts for about 2-3% of the American population. I know it sounds kind of corny, however once you have the chance to experience someone with a gambling addiction you realize exactly how far their willing to go to do it. It's quite sad actually.

 

novicemaker

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 12, 2014
223
0
See its a good thing i dont get offended easily because i am in fact Native American, mostly. My grand mother was full blood, mom half and i am a quarter. And i find its perfectly ok for them to sell what ever they wish and have it tax free. Sadly my mother hasnt a clue what my grandmother was so we cant get anything for being Native. Dang, i dont care about eh casino stuff i just wanted a free ride for college and to get to know more about my heritage.

 

ravenwolf

Can't Leave
Mar 18, 2014
302
0
From my experiences, you'd get a whole slew of varying answers dependant upon which Tribe is involved... the traditions vary greatly, and some Tribes uphold them more thoroughly than others. And even then, the people involved in the selling of tobacco may have different personal opinions than the rest of their respective Tribe.
You'd be looking at several "spectrums within a spectrum" sort of morality scale.
Examples - I've been given tobacco in a sacred way by an Ojibwe Elder, though I'm a white guy, and have given it in the same way in return plenty of times. Placing it in a red cloth, tied with red cordage, and giving them respect is about all that is necessary. The giving of tobacco as a tradition is a Respect thing, the selling of it... different ballgame in general. Might not be so simple with a Lakota person, as they tend to be more strict - though my few experiences with them have all been good (to the point of being invited for Ceremony in a Lakota Sundancer's Medicine Lodge... should not have been allowed in, since I am not a Sundancer.)
Like anything else, in pretty much any other culture that deems a subject to be of importance - ask ten people, and you'll probably get twelve answers. In general, I doubt the selling of it to be really objectionable, at least in the way most people use it. Ie, they'll sell ya a pack of smokes, but likely would never sell you a bowl out of the tobacco bag of a traditional Pipe Carrier.
Many Native folks I have met think that the tobacco is inherently sacred (one of the four sacred herbs), and the smoke of it can carry prayers - but at the same time, they have no problem with using it recreationally. Kind of dual usage that is situational dependant. I'm not a definitive authority by any stretch... just my thoughts and some experiences. Sounds like this person is in the anti-tobacco camp.

 

werebear

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 13, 2014
264
0
@zekest, sir I am highly offended by your offended-ness! I am also sorely grieved by your highly insensitive and prejudicial comment, in which you strongly imply that there are no white Tennesseans. Sir, I am so white that white people call me q-tip!

Okay, I'm just joking, but it was way more humorous in my head! :rofl:

 

novicemaker

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 12, 2014
223
0
You are so white your see through, snow looks at you and has to put sunglasses on. :rofl:

 
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