U.S. Chamber of Commerce Works Globally to Fight Antismoking Measures

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menuhin

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 21, 2014
642
3
I read the article, but am more interested in the comments picked by readers and NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/business/international/us-chamber-works-globally-to-fight-antismoking-measures.html

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/29/us/us-chamber-commerce-cigarette-lobbying.html
Of course, I don't care too much about the freedom of trading tobacco for cigarettes, what I care is how it may affect pipe tobacco. And I would also argue that allowing the freedom of choice to enjoy tobacco should be similar to the freedom to enjoy other things such as alcohol, which is different from an attempt to induce a population to higher chance of addiction of certain use of substance.
Sadly, it seems that the comments are almostly one-sided against any tobacco use.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
It has always seemed strange to me that people of certain political leanings can be against overpopulation at the same time they are against anything that might decrease the population...

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,568
15,211
SE PA USA
It has always seemed strange to me that people of certain political leanings can be against overpopulation at the same time they are against anything that might decrease the population...
This.
Or as my late father often opined: "What this world needs is a really good pandemic"

 

okiescout

Lifer
Jan 27, 2013
1,530
6
It has always seemed strange to me that people of certain political leanings can be against overpopulation at the same time they are against anything that might decrease the population...
When you start deciding who is worthy of life versus who is not, you have elevated yourself to deity. :roll:

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
Allright, Okie. I gave it a couple of weeks to make sure I wasn't just giving a knee-jerk, unthinking response. Now I just gotta ask: What in the hell does someone sticking their big fat nose in whether or not someone should be allowed to use tobacco (which is none of their God damned business in the first place) have to do with someone being worthy of life or not? I don't understand your statement, which seemed to be accusing me of assuming the role of "deity". Just for the record, I do think our society is sick in that it chooses to reward criminals with three hots and a cot while punishing the taxpayers by forcing them them to pay room and board for the aberrant scum who prey on them. The last time that was the norm we had a nifty revolution to end the problem.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,205
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Your last two sentences appear to be totally unrelated to the subject being discussed. You seem to want a political discussion, your first reply, as opposed to speaking to the Chamber and it's stance regarding tobacco as interpreted by the NY Times.
I've heard no oratory. I've only seen your typed words and it immediately derailed menuhin's post and took it into the realm of politics which is more or less verboten on the forum. The thread died a quick death before it could devolve into something the mods would have to close. Now resurrected, I will be interested in seeing if the thread can sustain itself. I doubt it.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
You're absolutely right, Warren. I did not want to derail the OP's post, and this is not the place for political discussions. I guess I just got a little assed up over what I took to be a shot across the bow from Okiescout. Sometimes even the most even-tempered among us can overreact, and I suppose I did. For that I apologize.

 

stickframer

Part of the Furniture Now
Apr 11, 2015
875
8
Reading the comments after the article I pictured an old-fashioned witch hunt, with the pitch fork wielding posse illuminated by torch light. Nasty stuff!

Tobacco seems to be taking a full share of blame, when there are so many other ills that I could argue have a much greater cost to society as a whole then tobacco. Ex. Where I live flavored baccy was banned to "save the children" but fruit flavored vodka and beer flows freely. If a teenaged kid smokes a flavored cigar, he/she smokes a flavored cigar and carries on. If he/she gets all pissed up on raspberry vodka, any number of negative things can take place, IMO.

 

stickframer

Part of the Furniture Now
Apr 11, 2015
875
8
I can't say if there'll be an affect to pipe tobacco here in NA or if the Chamber will really be able to sway politicians in other countries. Surely there are billions of dollars at stake. I wonder, if country x passes anti smoking legislation, how long would it take until there are detectable decreases in smoking, if there are any at all.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,205
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
stickframer: Your point is? Tobacco is as bad as liquor? Liquor is worse than tobacco? They're both bad? Good? That they, even though they are two disparate commodities, should be treated the same?
Please, read the articles that are available in the links of menuhin's post. The Cossack quoted in the article raises an interesting argument; trade protection, free trade treaties and agreements and the impact of certain laws passed by different nations on these treaties, pacts, etc.
I only read the articles once and did not notice any particular emphasis on the health aspect of the argument. The tobacco issue may be an interesting "toe in the door" with regard to possibly reducing the impact of the "anti-tobacco" people. I doubt its success but, it is an interesting gambit with equally interesting possibilities.

 

stickframer

Part of the Furniture Now
Apr 11, 2015
875
8
warren: I guess my point is that it's a shame tobacco became the sexy thing to regulate, but it has. So be it. One commenter called it 'demon' tobacco. I'll admit it's a bit off topic though.

The article mentions some fascinating points. Taking legal action against a country for enacting new legislation after signing a treaty, and the potential impact of bringing in plain packaging so that domestic and import products look similar were pretty interesting. My feeling is that if the Chamber won the legal action it would reduce the impact of the anti-tobacco folks. But then I guess that'd depend on what the new legislation was in the first place.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,205
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I think it is very interesting that a former SSR, basically a third world country (no offense intended), with respect to economy, has a tobacco lobby with such horse-power. Of course the Ukraine has a more pressing problem at this time, Russia as a neighbor. That industry, in the US, was at one time a very powerful lobby able to deflect tax legislation, force credits and tax support for growers and now has very little clout in Washington D.C.
Those states, where tobacco was king at one time, are now at the mercy of states which have no or an insignificant tobacco industry. This is pretty much the situation internationally. Many states/countries are trying to tax tobacco out of existence while building dependency on the taxes. It is a paradox which fascinates up to a point in that it necessitates finding other money sources as tobacco use will at some point decline meaning the revenues will shrink. The governments will find other sources which will cause a great deal of discomfort of some of those who support the taxes directed at the tobacco industry and smokers.
This situation, in the long run, has very little to do with the "antis" and everything to do with "quality of life" issues. (Quality of life being defined differently by the different segments of society is of course a point of contention.) Some of us will immediately charge the "antis" with a bias against the poor smoker, picking on the poor, hooked, tobacco user. Others will realize that tobacco users are simply convenient "cash cows" to be milked and that there is nothing personal about the taxes and social curbs. Some smokers take such actions as personal affronts, attacks on free will, independence, etc. The more pragmatic look at the overall situation and see that smokers, as long as they exist, are simply easy targets in the battle to grow government monies and keep feeding the society's never ending "want" for more money.
Tracking the efforts of the Chamber of Commerce and it's various subsets as they attack the situation will make for interesting reading. For those of us who lament the lack of a well financed lobby able to fight the "good fight" they could be the ally we are looking for. Admittedly this is an oblique assault which may not sit well with those members desiring a full frontal attack on the "enemy." Still, the possibilities are interesting.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,433
Trying to sort out tobacco issues based on the U.S. Chamber of Commerce seems certain to end in confusion. As I understand it, the Chamber is a powerful interest and lobbying group that has its own "foreign policy," as it were, but it is based purely on economic consideration and the profits of its members. That's not necessarily a judgement against it, but it doesn't try to figure in health, humanitarian considerations, or U.S. foreign relations. Their business is business from limited economic and political points of view, and that's all. It doesn't mean that its leaders and administrators don't have other interests, but those don't play into the Chamber's interests, in my opinion. General Motors fends for General Motors, and we don't look for religious, humanitarian, or philosophical guidance from them, and the same thing with USCC.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,205
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
That's the beauty of the Chamber's position, it omits reference to the real and/or imagined health consequences thereby making that issue moot to the argument presented in the articles mentioned above.
The Chambers are a large enough lobby that they do indeed impact foreign relations with respect to the US Government's foreign policies regarding trade. They just made the Republicans and many Democrats support the President's position on trade pacts and related treaties.
Take a look at how the Chambers are driving the immigration issue. They are a very powerful lobby, very powerful indeed. I would not so easily dismiss them as an ally in any contest. That's a very shortsighted position. The economic stability and condition of the country is probably the single most important voter issue in the US of A after national security.

 
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