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Tragedy in France: Notre Dame Cathedral Engulfed In Flames.

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  • Started 2 months ago by mawnansmiff
  • Latest reply from brian64
  1. mawnansmiff

    mawnansmiff

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    Watching it right now on the news....absolute tragedy of an internationally important building. Brings tears to my eyes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794

    Regards,

    Jay.

    ...take up thy stethoscope and walk...
    Posted 2 months ago #
  2. hoosierpipeguy

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    That is awful news. Even worse news if it were terrorist related.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  3. prairiedruid

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    Too early to know cause for sure but may be linked to restoration work that was being done. Main spire and roof of cathedral is gone........tragic. All that lead being liquified is another health concern.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  4. renal923

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    I've been following along since I first found out. I also have a friend who lives in Paris who is watching it from as close as she could. It's heart wrenching.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  5. cachimbero

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    A very sad day. Hope it is extinguished soon. Some things are irreplaceable. Very sad.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  6. seanv

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    Very sad loss. Beautiful architecture that can’t be replaced

    Posted 2 months ago #
  7. kcghost

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    So sad this structure was allowed to deteriorate so badly. Even non-practicing Catholics feel the loss of this once great building.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  8. workman

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    When I was there, more than 20 years ago, I thought it the most beautiful, awe inspiring building I had ever seen. This is so sad. I was certain I was going there again. It is a major national symbol for France, and even more for parisians. So sad. It really makes me feel that nothing lasts forever.

    Smoking is one of the leading causes of all statistics.
    Posted 2 months ago #
  9. jvnshr

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    Sad news. Watching on TV right now.

    Javan
    Posted 2 months ago #
  10. npod

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    In Remembrance. Picture from 2016. My heart is hurting right now.

    Neal
    Posted 2 months ago #
  11. krizzose

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    A universal tragedy

    Posted 2 months ago #
  12. olkofri

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    The Hour of Darkness.

    Not the sweet, new grass with flowers is this harvesting of mine;
    Not the upland clover bloom...
    Posted 2 months ago #
  13. warren

    warren

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    Heart wrenching. All that it stood for, all of the history, the fantastic facade, the interior, everything about church ... simply heart wrenching. Words are so inefficient.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 2 months ago #
  14. brian64

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    I can only echo all of the above sentiment.

    I would only add that, regardless of the cause, I see it as symbolic of and symptomatic of the general deterioration of western civilization.

    “Bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.” – George Carlin
    Posted 2 months ago #
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    celticbrewer

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    Such an amazing place. One of my favorite buildings in the world. Over 3 centuries to build. It will be missed by many

    Posted 2 months ago #
  16. jpmcwjr

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    It's down but not out. It will be back. Maybe take a few decades, and some pieces cannot be replaced or replicated, but there will be a Nôtre Dame de Paris again.

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 2 months ago #
  17. scloyd

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    Very sad news. My wife and I visited Paris last September for our 40th anniversary.

    One evening as we walked along the Seine we stopped and watched an elderly gentleman paint with watercolors. We chatted with him for about 15-20 minutes as he painted. He was a wonderful charming man. We purchased two watercolors from him, one is of Notre Dame Cathedral. We had the watercolors framed and they're great reminders of the great trip we had.

    Here is the Notre Dame Cathedral watercolor.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  18. kcghost

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    This must be gut wrenching for the French to watch. General Choltitz 75 years later can finally answer in the affirmative.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  19. wyfbane

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    This is such sad news. I never had the priveledge of seeing it firsthand and now it is doubtful that my kids will get the chance either.

    That said, I agree that it will be rebuilt. I was surprised to read how much of the building that existed prior to the fire had been started or updated in the last 225 years or so. This gives me hope that it will rise from the ashes again.

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    instymp

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    They can rebuild the outside but never replace what was inside.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  21. mawnansmiff

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    I kick myself for not going inside the place when I had the opportunity. I was in Paris in 1988 with my then girlfriend Mary with who we'd just had an argument about going up the Eiffel Tower. I declined as I fear heights so said to her to go up and I would wait below but no, she didn't want that.

    Long story short, we wandered past and admired the Notre Dame cathedral but never went inside!

    Bryan64....

    "I would only add that, regardless of the cause, I see it as symbolic of and symptomatic of the general deterioration of western civilization."

    Would you care to elaborate on that please?

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  22. rfernand

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    BBC reports they saved the towers and the art. The spire and 2/3 of the roof are gone.

    Dunhill will return.
    Posted 2 months ago #
  23. jpmcwjr

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    Good news. It'll be back sooner rather than later, then. Of course, it will never be exactly the same, but changes have been made over the centuries, and in 50 years, no one will be lamenting what was lost.

    Your children can visit with equanimity!

    Posted 2 months ago #
  24. weezell

    weezell

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    A universal tragedy
    and
    Heart wrenching
    says it all. I am deeply saddened by this...

    "the weez"...
    Posted 2 months ago #
  25. buck17

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    Devastating.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  26. mso489

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    Sickening to see. Later this evening, officials said the underlying structure was saved, but the spire, much art, and stain glass windows are gone. I'm glad I saw it about ten years ago and went inside. There are other cathedrals in Paris, but until the Notre-Dame is restored, perhaps the one to see is in Chartre, about thirty minutes away.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  27. warren

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    I would only add that, regardless of the cause, I see it as symbolic of and symptomatic of the general deterioration of western civilization.

    brian: I also would love a paragraph or two as to how you arrived at that thought.

    I promise not to respond, no matter what you write. But, I am immensely curious as to the "how."

    Posted 2 months ago #
  28. jpmcwjr

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    For a sheer and compact, stunning building, Sainte Chapelle also on the Isle de la Cité cannot be beat. Here's your stained glass treat:

    Posted 2 months ago #
  29. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    I remember visiting Notre Dame when I backpacked across Western Europe in 1972. It was truly awe inspiring, It will be rebuilt. It has survived fires before. The possible loss of the rose windows is a terrible tragedy, but they have been rebuilt before ad will be rebuilt again.

    There is one Parisian building contractor who won't be getting any business after this...

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 2 months ago #
  30. rfernand

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    I’m glad there was no loss of life.

    Now, please let the culprit not be a smoker. Please. We’re demonized enough.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  31. brian64

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    Would you care to elaborate on that please?

    I'd be happy to, but have had no time yet (hard to believe, I know...but I have actually had some other things to do). But I will as soon as I am able.

    brian: I also would love a paragraph or two as to how you arrived at that thought.

    I promise not to respond, no matter what you write. But, I am immensely curious as to the "how."

    LOL … please feel free to respond Warren when I get around to it. And not to worry...I fully expect your view to be quite the opposite of mine. If it were to turn out otherwise, it'll just be another one of those dates to mark on the calendar.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  32. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Now, please let the culprit not be a smoker. Please. We’re demonized enough.

    The culprit was more than likely a blowtorch. The reports I'm reading state that the fire is being labeled an accident, brought about by the restoration work being done on the building.

    Ooooops...

    Posted 2 months ago #
  33. redglow

    redglow

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    Hello Prudential..........

    Posted 2 months ago #
  34. brian64

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    Would you care to elaborate on that please?

    Ok, well, regarding the issue of the West being in decline, I could make a laundry list of all of the reasons why I believe that is true...in steep, advanced decline in so many ways...and I even started to, but decided not to for two reasons. One, this has been a tiring Monday and I'm just not sufficiently motivated to do it right now. Two, so much has been said and written on this subject over the last decade or so that it's kind of pointless for me to regurgitate it. If anyone is not already of that opinion, nothing I say is going to make any difference to them.

    As for Notre Dame burning being symbolic of that, I don't really understand why that would need explaining. A structure that impressive...of that exquisite beauty and architectue burning...is to me symbolic of the deterioration of the west. Is that really difficult to understand...particularly in light of the course of events in Western Europe in recent years...and particularly in France.

    Now to really elaborate on that would require a conversation that can't be had here.

    The last part regarding it being "symptomatic" of the deterioration of the west, well that can't be substantiated in any way of course, but it just strikes me that way (or at least potentially)...even if it was accidental. The most extreme precautions should have been in place to prevent such an accident from even being possible at such a place. It strikes me as a reflection of a kind of carelessness that stems from our general decline.

    Now yes, I know...all of that is just crazy nonsense of course...but it was requested.

    Carry on.

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    ukbob

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    Sad news Indeed, but it will be restored.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  36. sablebrush52

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    The last part regarding it being "symptomatic" of the deterioration of the west, well that can't be substantiated in any way of course, but it just strikes me that way (or at least potentially).

    Just because it was being converted to condos, you get all serious.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  37. madox07

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    It seems that it can be rebuilt. The roof is quite a loss with the gothic vaults, but what can you do? Preliminary reports seem to indicate an accident ... at least nobody was crazy enough to deliberately set it on fire.

    Sea Wolf Pipers

    "Like the mariners of old, a loner is acceptable but a pipe is best enjoyed in a pack"
    Posted 2 months ago #
  38. mawnansmiff

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    "The most extreme precautions should have been in place to prevent such an accident from even being possible at such a place."

    Brian64, that one sentence is the only one you wrote that made any sense to me.

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  39. mikethompson

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    loss of the rose windows is a terrible tragedy

    Some good news this morning, the giant rose window and most of the structure is intact. I read that last night somewhere that it survived. No sources to cite though.

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    paulfg

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    Its not like the richest church in the world cant afford to restore it.I saw on the news that donations were being given .i ask why when surely the hundreds of millions required is small change to the vatican

    Posted 2 months ago #
  41. mikethompson

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    Whether or not the church can afford to restore it is beside the point no? The cultural and historical significance of Notre Dame is just as significant as its religious purpose.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  42. mawnansmiff

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    I wonder if Forum member Tim aka 'Ashdigger' might chime in on what procedures will take place to try to determine the exact cause of the conflagration.

    I find it fascinating how these cases are forensically analysed to come up with the conclusions that they do.

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  43. jpmcwjr

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    Some good news this morning, the giant rose window and most of the structure is intact. I read that last night somewhere that it survived. No sources to cite though.

    Saw photos/videos of that window. It will all be restored, so that only a few will be aware of what was lost forever.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  44. ashdigger

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    Jay, based on the limited coverage I've see, I know there is a ton of it available, I'd start with the earliest video footage available.

    I'd interview the crew(s) working that day and just prior to the incident.

    That's the starting point.

    This will be a massive undertaking, but who has that much insurance?

    This is a tragedy, most likely an avoidable one.

    Ubi Ignis Est?
    Posted 2 months ago #
  45. mso489

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    It is hardly Notre-Dame, but a local historical courthouse in a nearby county caught fire during renovation and burnt to a shell and was later carefully restored to full use. At the time, I interpreted the fire as caused by use of a torch or power tools in the construction area with lots of sawdust on the floor and in the air. Of course, the Notre-Dame fire will be carefully studied in terms of cause, but I think many construction workers used to working on more modern buildings don't always think about the extra hazards of older, drier, more flammable reconstruction. The Notre-Dame spire was mostly oak and had been drying out since it was built in the Nineteenth Century, reports said. Much of the rest of the building dates back more like 850 years.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  46. mawnansmiff

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    "Jay, based on the limited coverage I've seen, I know there is a ton of it available, I'd start with the earliest video footage available.

    I'd interview the crew(s) working that day and just prior to the incident.

    That's the starting point."

    Thanks Tim. I should imagine amongst many tons of rubble, half burned timbers and thousands of gallons of water the investigators will have no easy task in determining the causal factor.

    As for speaking to work crews, who is going to put his hands up and say "I left my blowtorch running while I went for a pee"?

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  47. ashdigger

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    As for speaking to work crews, who is going to put his hands up and say "I left my blowtorch running while I went for a pee"?

    That's not as complicated as it seems. The tricky part is recovering the torch or it's components to use as evidence and proff.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  48. carolinachurchwarden

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    This will be a massive undertaking, but who has that much insurance?

    Because of the nature of the structure, its historical significance, and the importance this site holds to many all over the world, I wouldn't be surprised to see that money will not be an issue, if that's what I gather you're trying to say Tim.

    "If you can't send money, send tobacco." - George Washington

    Posted 2 months ago #
  49. warren

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    Tim is being, he's a professional after all, purposely vague I suspect. Fires leave patterns. Some obvious and some, very subtle. The area where the fire started should be (Note, should be) easy to pin down. Guessing that some of the best investigators in Europe will be employed in tracking down the cause(s) should (There's that word again.) it be found. But, a number of possible causes may be found or, posited.

    My belief is, arson is being intentionally downplayed because the subject itself could cause more problems, civil unrest. I know the fire investigators haven't ruled such out this early in the investigation. I doubt the professionals have ruled out anything at this stage in the investigation. Only the politicians would voice such so as to dampen down any possible irresponsible responses.

    First responders (No word if they were fire fighters, construction people or cathedral employees when I typed this.) found no fire when they responded the first time. I find that very interesting. A later, second alarm was required. It'll be interesting, if that report is true, to know the "why" to that.

    So, all we can do is wait and keep speculation unvoiced. Let the pros do their job. After that? Well, most will accept the findings and the "conspiracy" folks can start writing their books and pontificating on TV. Good moneys to be made in that!

    "I left my blowtorch running while I went for a pee"?

    Jay: It happens. Guilt is a terrific motivator.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  50. carolinachurchwarden

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    Well, on the brighter side and with the thoughts leaning more towards restoration, I just read that French billionaire Francois Henri Pinault pledged $113 million toward reconstructing the cathedral and fellow billionaire Bernard Arnault and his LVMH group pledged $226 million. I'm sure there will be others. It's nice to see a lot of the art, the 18th century organ and religious artifacts were saved.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  51. warren

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    Notice how Arnault "one upped" the Pinault, doubling the amount? Question not the motive, simply accept the gift with gracious thanks. I just happened to notice and the cynic in me ... well, I just noticed it.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  52. mso489

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    After seeing that fire at Notre-Dame burn for hours, it is astonishing what all made it through, particularly people, but also stain glass windows, art, the organ (I didn't know about that), relics and much more. A firefighting classic effort, it appears.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  53. woodsroad

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    Guessing that some of the best investigators in Europe will be employed in tracking down the cause(s) should (There's that word again.) it be found.

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    jguss

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    Dan, only if they can dig up a Ouija board

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    jguss

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    Your children can visit with equanimity

    It's sad, yes, but our children will indeed see a rebuilt Notre Dame. And honestly I don't think they'll see something very different from what existed two days ago. A generation ago such things were done many times:

    Vienna's Stephansdom

    Munich's Frauenkirch

    London's House of Commons

    I'm assuming, of course, that IM Pei isn't given the commission.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  56. olkofri

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    Its not like the richest church in the world cant afford to restore it.I saw on the news that donations were being given .i ask why when surely the hundreds of millions required is small change to the vatican

    That's not how the Church works. It's not a centralised corporation. Churches and parishes are locally financed, from alms, basically. The Vatican doesn't write out cheques or give subsidies.

    I just read that French billionaire Francois Henri Pinault pledged $113 million toward reconstructing the cathedral and fellow billionaire Bernard Arnault and his LVMH group pledged $226 million.

    This is even more troubling: anti-Church heathens ponying up to prop themselves up, but more important ominous, rushing in to rebuild the church in their own image. With Macron recently declaring that Notre Dame will be rebuilt in a manner 'more appropriate to our diverse, modern times' you wonder whether the new product will be even Christian.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  57. woodsroad

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    I'm assuming, of course, that IM Pei isn't given the commission
    Wouldn't we be better off with a safe space for all persons, rather than a monument to the institutionalized oppression of the masses?
    With Macron recently declaring that Notre Dame will be rebuilt in a manner 'more appropriate to our diverse, modern times' you wonder whether the new product will be even Christian.
    Ah, there we go! I'm feeling safer already!

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    jguss

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    Wouldn't we be better off with a safe space for all persons, rather than a monument to the institutionalized oppression of the masses?

    Amen brother! What reeducation camp did you attend? I want to book a weekend there for my wives wife and I.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  59. woodsroad

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    I want to book a weekend there for my wives wife and I.
    Kamp Leon. Be sure to wear you Greek fisherman's cap and sustainable sourced, fair trade sweater-vest.

    Posted 2 months ago #
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    aldecaker

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    "As for speaking to work crews, who is going to put his hands up and say "I left my blowtorch running while I went for a pee"?"

    Why am I picturing a mime with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth giving that famous Gallic shrug?

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 2 months ago #
  61. warren

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    Let me shoulder my way into this last car. Oops, sorry! Excuse me! I wanna see this train wreck unfold firsthand.

    I'm always in my safe space. I have the means to insure that is always so. Of course, it may not be all that safe for others.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  62. brian64

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    Brian64, that one sentence is the only one you wrote that made any sense to me.

    I made a commitment to stop making sense when I became a Talking Heads fan earlier this year.

    I'm glad to see I've made some progress, but not quite there yet.

    Damn, now it all makes sense.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi7i-ZRx3nc

    Posted 2 months ago #
  63. mawnansmiff

    mawnansmiff

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    Come on guys, this should not be an opportunity for political or religious debate, we're talking of an amazingly historical building devoured by one person's negligence and how it should and will be rebuilt.

    I'm a confirmed atheist yet have visited more ecclesiastical buildings than many folks I know, simply for the gorgeousness of their building qulity.

    I visited and photographed such sites for no other reason than it gave me pleasure to see and to study such architecture created by folks who were likely living in mud brick hovels and living on subsistence diets.

    Please, out of respect, leave the politics out of it else Javan will be out with his closure tool!

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  64. prairiedruid

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    Macron can say whatever he wants but it will be the Vatican that will oversee the reconstruction. My opinion is that it will be restored/reconstructed to be as close to original as possible. A good time to be a stone mason!

    Posted 2 months ago #
  65. olkofri

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    Jay, we can try, but it's impossible not to bring in religion AND politics when discussing the destruction of a RELIGIOUS edifice within a given sociopolitical context. I respect your free will to not believe, and I appreciate that you're not pushing your atheism on others, but the fact remains that a number of us here are believers, even orthodox Catholics, such as yours truly; thus, we cannot under any circumstance ignore the prime purpose Notre Dame exists. Others can treat it as a museum or landmark if they want, but as, ironically, an atheist writer put it, "no amount of scepticism is going to legislate the truth out of existence".

    Looking at Notre Dame from a purely art appreciation perspective is akin to buying a magnificent pipe just to look at it and never loading it with tobacco and firing it up. Yes, there are many who do just this: but the vast majority of pipers will never refuse to acknowledge that a pipe's raison d'etre is the smoking of tobacco, not sitting pretty in a glass case.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  66. aquadoc

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    "Others can treat it as a museum or landmark if they want, but as, ironically, an atheist writer put it, "no amount of scepticism is going to legislate the truth out of existence"."... Ironic and hypocritical. Business as usual.

    "If you resolve to give up smoking, drinking and sex, you don't actually live longer; it just seems that way."
    Posted 2 months ago #
  67. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Others can treat it as a museum or landmark if they want, but as, ironically, an atheist writer put it, "no amount of scepticism is going to legislate the truth out of existence".

    Which truth? It's a place of worship and it's also a World History site, a place of great spiritual grandeur, a witness to much history. It represents faith and power. It may have been built with blood, sweat, and treachery, but the result is a place of great spiritual uplifting. I can appreciate it for what it is without denying what went into the making of it.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  68. mawnansmiff

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    "Guillermo Rein, professor of fire science at Imperial College London, told the BBC that "what the Paris firefighters did was close to a miracle".

    "It's completely different to most training because all the material burning is the roof," he said.

    The cathedral's roof is a complex piece of carpentry with very thin and very thick columns which are all flammable, he explained. The thin parts ignite first and then ignite thicker wood which burns for a long time. "

    Blimey, it took a professor to work that one out

    Regards,

    Jay.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  69. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Pairs firefighters had been specifically trained for just such an occurrence and the training paid off.

    Reading a bit on Notre Dame is fascinating. The Catholic Church doesn't own it, France does. At various points in time, it's been a Temple of Reason (which unsurprisingly lasted only a short period), and a warehouse. The main reason that it hasn't fallen into rubble is due to the popularity of a book about a fellow with bad posture. This led to major renovations in the 19th century.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  70. brian64

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    A couple of interesting articles on it:

    Notre Dame Was 15 Minutes From Destruction; Here's What Was Saved And What Was Lost

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-17/notre-dame-was-15-30-minutes-destruction-heres-what-was-saved-and-what-was-lost

    And turns out I wasn't the only human on the planet to see a symbolic aspect to it after all...imagine that:

    Notre Dame & The Identity Of France

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-16/notre-dame-identity-france

    The main reason that it hasn't fallen into rubble is due to the popularity of a book about a fellow with bad posture.

    And the bells...the bells.

    Posted 2 months ago #

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