To Press or not to Press ....when aging

hawke · Nov 16, 2014

What has been your experiences with aging tobacco where its just loosely filled into a jar verses pressing it firmly.
I suspect the aging process(taste changes) would happen sooner in a loosely filled jar, however I recently pressed a jar filled with a blend I had made up which I liked very much as it was. As I dig a bit off the top I feel like I'm disturbing the aging process less to the remaining tobacco. However I suspect the aging process is slowed down by a pressing the blend.
Your thoughts or experiences is requested please.

gmwolford · Nov 17, 2014

Interesting question. I've read both ways are "right " though I usually fill it pretty full - 2 oz in a 4 oz jelly jar is what I like. My understanding though is no matter how you fill it every time you open the jar the aging process is stopped and restarted.

escioe · Nov 17, 2014

This is something I'd love to experiment with on a blend like 5100.
Right now, my approach is by weight rather than volume: 2 oz of tobacco goes in half pint jars, regardless of how tight or loose it fits. I find that 2 oz is a good amount for me to smoke in a reasonable timeframe.

cosmicfolklore · Nov 17, 2014

I do the same as Escioe, 2oz to pint, even if it is flake. This leaves plenty of air in the jar. I keep reading from the experts that the more air in the jar, the faster the microbes build up before it hits that plateau of perfect aging environment. I have yet to have anything older than two years in my stash, but I do notice that the jars with more headroom will seal themselves faster. I'm not sure if that is linked to being a more productive or just an anomaly.

woodsroad · Nov 17, 2014

What you are after when aging are anaerobic conditions. So packing tightly is the way to go.
An interesting experiment would be to run a controlled aging study with a loose filled jar, a tightly packed jar, and a CO2 flushed sample.

billypm · Nov 17, 2014

Every time you pop the jar to "dig a bit off the top" you are stopping the aging process, which will then have to start again from scratch as soon as you re-close your jar. The transition from aerobic (oxygen) to anaerobic (non-oxygen) breathing microbes is crucial to the aging process, and only happens when the environment is sealed long enough for the former to consume all the oxygen and make way for the latter. At least that is my understanding-- please correct me, all you experts, if I've mucked it up,
So whether you pack loosely or tightly is less important than leaving the jar unopened for a good long while. My uneducated guess is that a tighter pack would still leave enough air to get the process going.

escioe · Nov 17, 2014

What you are after when aging are anaerobic conditions.

I'm not sure that's the entirety of it, though. I've read a good deal about it, and none of it really seems like settled science at this point.
Going back through the amazing alt.smokers.pipes archives, I found this question and a response from Greg Pease.

> As I understand it, the "aging bugs" do their deeds anaerobically (no

> oxygen), ergo the need for airtight packaging. In a tightly twisted

> plug, it seems the interior would be the first to undergo the process.

>

> There may also be aerobic bugs that cause favorable results too.

>

> I've often been criticised for pulling a vacuum on my aging jars, but I

> only seek to hasten an anaerobic environment.

Ah, but there's a difference between an anaerobic environment that occurs

as a result of microbes using the oxygen and producing CO2 (along with

other byproducts), and one that's artificially created by simply sucking

the air out.
The "aging" of tobacco in tins is a complex thing. There are various

organic reactions taking place, along with biological changes. These

changes will tend to happen more or less sequentially, so if you break

the change the environment at any point, you'll probably change the end

point. Of course, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.
-glp

Then, a few years later, in response to the aerobic vs anaerobic debate:

There's a lot to this. Even an evacuated tin has sufficient oxygen left

for some aerobic activity. However, as the oxygen is used up faster, the

transition to anaerobic fermentation will likely occur earlier. I have

yet to determine where in the tobacco life-cycle these transitions

normally occur, and I suspect much variation due to difficulty in

controlling the macro-environmental factors that make up the micro-biome

in there.
In addition to microbial activity, there are many organic reactions that

take place, and the rate of these reactions will change based on

envionmental conditions, such as temperature, the amount of water, O2,

N2, CO2, and many other factors. Organic reactions can be VERY slow...
What goes on in that little world over time is remarkably complex - not

unlike what goes on in our own world over time.
-glp

My take, having read a lot about it, is that both processes are at work, doing different things. It's interesting that we usually say that lots of the aging benefits come within the first two or three or five years. With non-evacuated tins, I'd imagine a good deal of that time is spent with the little aerobic bugs sucking up the O2 and turning it into CO2 for the anaerobic bugs to use later on. Like most things, it seems pretty complex and irreducible to one single cause. I'm just going to have to get a pound of 5100 and a couple of years and do the experiment myself.

woodsroad · Nov 17, 2014

If you have a sample that has been aging in a sealed container with an anaerobic atmosphere, and you then open the container and introduce oxygen, the benefits of aging are not lost. You have just changed the environment, and it will take a while re-establish an anaerobic environment. So you would not be starting "from scratch" per se.
Flushing the container with CO2 before re-closing would give you a quick shortcut to resumption of anaerobic activity.

lestrout · Nov 17, 2014

Yo woods - flushing with CO2, or even N2, might still impact on the organic chemistry underway. This could be good, or bad, or just different. Do you have access to an inert gas, such as argon that is used in welding, or helium (a friendly local balloon outfit would have this)?
hp

les

woodsroad · Nov 17, 2014

Les, I have a tank of argon out in the garage. Might be an argon/CO2 mix, I'll have to look. Ideally, I guess, one would analyze the gasses from a sealed and aged jar and replicate that. I was thinking CO2 as the common bi-product of fermentation.
If I ever go back to school for organic chem, this will be a good research project. UC Davis has a good fermentation studies dept.

jitterbugdude · Nov 17, 2014

Interesting.. I flushed some jars (of pipe tobacco and dip) with Nitrogen about a month ago. I 'll let you all know the results in 2024!

hawke · Nov 17, 2014

What great responses! Surely something for the nicotine filled brain to ponder.

Thanks guys!

mso489 · Nov 17, 2014

Aging happens -- tobacco aging that is -- so all of us have at least a chance acquaintance with it.

But predicting it, especially adding pressure, is a kind of sorcery to my mind. Professional blenders

who live with leaf and preside over the aging and blending of tons of tobacco have a chance to develop

some idea of what they're doing, and even then only a kind of intelligent intuition. No two years of

the same seed tobacco ever come out the same, and often different leaf of one type is substituted

from year to year to compensate for drought, etc. For me, mixing and smoking, rather than actual

blending with aging and pressure, is more fun because you know the results soon and the quantities

are small and the mix can be discarded if it really comes out bad. But all credit to those who can

age leaf and get good results, by knowledge or luck.

toby67 · Nov 21, 2014

Thanks for this post, what an amazing post to read. I wonder if it were at all possible to place a wireless atmosphere sensor into the jar and create a daily / weekly graph that could give a better understanding about "life in a jar" over a period of 1-5 years.
I bow to the tobacco gods .. lol :worship:

hawke · Apr 11, 2015

Ive been away due to browser issues. My current browser is annoying me with popups.

Anyway, Ive been trying different methods of aging. Nothing has given me any direction of how to go. As has been said above the variables are daunting the process. The only real proven aspects seem to be that blends with Virginia tobaccos change and sweeten the most.

framitz · Apr 11, 2015

When I had heart trouble in 2001 I stashed a dozen tins of various blends and a bag of penance I have been slowly getting into opening these. So far the penance and mm965 have been great much more mellow taste to dunhill penzance is sweeter. Shel

raevans · Apr 11, 2015

I just popped open some Dunhill Night Cap from 1997. When I first sealed it, I did not know anything about loose or tight. All I knew was that I had five pounds of tobacco and that I needed to store it. I took some quart ball mason jars and I crammed as much tobacco into each jar as I could. I put it away and basically forgot about it until I re-discovered the "footlocker stash" about three weeks ago. (a complete other thread needed about Man Caves and Hen Dens to explain the re-discovery) When I first opened the jar, it had a vacuum tight seal, sound of sucking air when opened. The tobacco was somewhat drier than when it went in, but if your like me and dry out your tobacco a bit before smoking, it was perfect. The taste is incredible. Full of flavor that I never noticed from the tobacco when I smoke it from a new tin. Once I finish this jar, I will have a tough choice between some Dunhill EMP that is from 1995 or some Esoteric And So To Bed from 2000. From not knowing the first thing about the whole process, I would say that packing it as tight as possible and then leave it alone to do its thing, is what worked best for me.

brass · Apr 15, 2015

I have no experience aging anything more than a year, so my opinion is speculation. For my tastes, I like flakes, kakes, and plugs more than loose tobacco cuts. To me, they are richer, deeper, sweeter, more rounded - just better. I believe these styles of cuts are all pressed and aged. So, I would conclude that compressing the tobacco for storage would aid in maturing the blend. But, as I admit, it is just speculation.
Pax

monty55 · Apr 15, 2015

I don't have any bulk tobacco or bags. So I pretty much decided if I open a tin and transfer it to a mason jar then the aging process is pretty much done for that tin and I'm smoking it. For the tobaccos I really want to age I leave them in the tin undisturbed. Anything that gets past a year and I have not smoked it yet is there to stay for at least 10 more.

blueeyedogre · Apr 15, 2015

My "fat Bastard" aro blend is packed into the jars. As much as I could push in is what they got but I hadn't done any reading about storing. Now my orders of 5100 and VaPer blends just get loosely poured into a jar til full then capped without and stuffing at all. I think from my reading the aros might benefit from the stuffing as it allows the aro flavors to grow together, like a pressed tobacco, where the virginias and VaPers have room to age.

To Press or not to Press ....when aging

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