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Ten Years of Banned Smoking in England

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  • Started 1 year ago by briarfriar
  • Latest reply from ssjones
  1. briarfriar

    briarfriar

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    The writer, a self-described libertarian, reflects on ten years after. Click here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. jpberg

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    I'd laugh at the ludicrous situation that the U.K. and EU have put themselves in, but I live in New York, so I'll empathize instead.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. oldmansmoking

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    Studies of non-smokers who are married to non-smokers show considerably higher rates of heart disease, respiratory problems and a whole smorgasbord of cancers. I’m sorry, but they just do.

    I think he was ment to have said non-smokers who are married to smokers!!
    I agree with the ban, but feel any further atemt to ban smoking should be fought against. Enough is enough.
    I don't agree with plan packing of tobacco products.
    If we as adults wish to smoke we should be able to. But not in restaurants or pubs.

    A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise ☪️
    OLDMANSMOKING
    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. forsooth

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    The writer of the article states, "But the evidence seems to suggest that the effect on public health has been substantial. Rates of smoking-related cancers are down..."

    According to UK cancer stats from http://www.cancerresearchuk.org, the writer's comments seem a bit wobbly, as they say. For example:

    "Over the last decade in the UK (between 2003-2005 and 2012-2014), lung cancer AS incidence rates have increased by 4% for males and females combined..." (Highest increase for females.)

    "Over the last decade in the UK (between 2003-2005 and 2012-2014), oesophageal cancer AS incidence rates have remained stable for males and females combined..."

    "Over the last decade, head and neck cancer incidence rates have increased by almost a quarter (23%) in the UK, with a larger increase in females (27%) than in males (19%)."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. deathmetal

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    The big secret will come out some day, which is that most cancers are related to industrial pollution. Smoking is a convenient scapegoat; certainly it is likely that inhaling any kind of particulate smoke will increase the risk, but for whatever reason, the blame is over-stated in my view.

    "My own experience has been that the tools I need for my trade are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey." -- William Faulkner

    The Metal Mixtures
    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. pipesmokingtom

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    If we as adults wish to smoke we should be able to. But not in restaurants or pubs.

    I think it should be up to the business-owner. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

    "We have an unspoken, mutual understanding to ignore the things we hate about each other so we can continue to enjoy the things we love about each other."
    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. warren

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    If we as adults wish to smoke we should be able to.

    We are, of course, allowed to smoke. We are just restricted as to where. Further, smokers can fight new regulations and laws all we want. All we have to do is organize enough voters to have an impact. Lotsa luck with that!

    I agree with the ban, but feel any further atemt (sic) to ban smoking should be fought against.

    Organizing smokers into a cohesive voting bloc with sufficient monies for the requisite ads, staff salaries, phones, political donations, etc., when smokers come from all different political viewpoints, is an impossible chore. There is a reason political discussions are not permitted on the various fora. One would have to find one hell of a lot of "single issue" voters as the abortion crowd did. Of course they turned the issue into one about a "woman's right to choose." So, perhaps smokers could turn the issue into a "person's right to choose"... smoking? That dawg won't hunt!

    I think it should be up to the business-owner. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Leaving it up to the business owner is a thought. In some areas of the country though, the owner would have to have the various unions agree that he could hire only from a list of members who wish to work in a smoking establishment and, not simply from the top of the list. Labor unions are not going to force members to take employment in what is now viewed and unhealthy environment.

    As to pubs closing because of the ban, Ireland has not experienced such, the closings there are more rightly attributed economics and, the stricter enforcement of drunk driving laws, coupled with stiffer penalties. One no longer sees big farm tractors parked at a pub. A lot more bicycles though.

    We smokers are but a tiny percentage of the electorate. We are not a "protected" minority. So, we will just have to suck it up and suffer the indignity of standing in the rain, huddled under a heater if lucky, and enjoy our tiny society outside the bars and pubs. Soon, even that wee pleasure will cease as more jurisdictions adopt such rules as "no smoking with in fifty feet of a business", and other such laws.

    You young smokers are in for some tough times indeed, should you wish to pursue your wee vice anyplace but in your own, detached, single family dwelling. And, soon you will have to own your dwelling as lenders aren't going to want to finance a home which they may have fumigate and repaint if they have to foreclose and then sell to recoup their moneys.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. jefff

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    20 years from now today will be thought of as "the golden years "

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    I'm not real sold on "enough voters to have an impact" having anything to do with anything. With everything from the Whisky Rebellion to Obamacare and many, many issues in between, the government has done exactly what the majority of voters expressly did not want. Majority rules, unless it's not okay with Uncle Sam.

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. warren

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    No, I think the elected ones do what they know they can get away with while furthering their agenda. Job loss scares even the most entrenched of politicians.

    Voters have short memories, even shorter attention spans, and many are quite gullible, sell their votes cheaply, as well as being "single issue," and/or are ill informed. As I've said before, "We get exactly what we vote for." And, remember, it's not what the majority wants, it's what the majority of voters want, excepting presidential elections and other elections where the largest vote attainer, often without 50% is the "winner." Many eligible people are not registered to vote and many voters choose not to exercise their franchise. It's not as though the entire population is involved in the governing of our country, the USA. The "will" of the people is determined by those who vote and, all too often, skewed polling results.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. deathmetal

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    Voters have short memories, even shorter attention spans, and many are quite gullible, sell their votes cheaply, as well as being "single issue," and/or are ill informed. As I've said before, "We get exactly what we vote for." And, remember, it's not what the majority wants, it's what the majority of voters want, excepting presidential elections and other elections where the largest vote attainer, often without 50% is the "winner."

    Perhaps even a simple plurality will suffice in many cases. Good observations. Part of that "responsibility" thing is to have people realize who holds the power, and in a democracy, it is the voters, so we have no one to blame but ourselves (and we will blame each other).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. rlunderhill

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    My State ban's Tobacco and then legalizes Weed? Stupid Democrat State.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. perdurabo

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    Dug this up from the grave, rlunderhill. Do they sit on their hands in your State? .

    It's not my position nor want to help another man. It's his responsibility to help himself, as where he can learn to dig down deep enough to save himself. -I. Kidd
    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. lazar

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    I would like to see some evidence of pubs closing because of the smoking ban. Everything I've ever read attributes it to changing tastes in drinking and culture - including drinking less, more wine and cocktails and less beer, clubs taking the place of pubs, pubs no longer being places for entire families to go together, and regular price increases. Plus the fact that smokers have now taken over pretty much all outdoor spaces in pubs - with heaters and shelters provided. For non-smokers at pubs, outdoors is the new indoors. It's impossible to sit outside at a pub without being in a cloud of rank cigarette smoke.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. deathmetal

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    Western Civilization is dying, but the UK and Sweden are rushing for the first place in failure.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. brian64

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    Western Civilization is dying, but the UK and Sweden are rushing for the first place in failure.

    The U.S. can't be far behind when you have stories such as the recent vote by the Denver city council to decriminalize defecating and urinating on public sidewalks.

    “Bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.” – George Carlin
    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. ericusrex

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    Can you smoke weed in an establishment where smoking is banned?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. bonanzadriver

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    It all smacks of despotic nanny state intelegentsia run amuck. Definitely something for those among us that tend to sympathize with the group think de jour and are buying what main stream media is manufacturing day in and day out.

    In other words, Elections have Consequences... What that article so adroitly illustrates, as well as what we have all been experiencing here with the illegal / unconstitutional "Deeming" acts of the FDA, is that we all need to think through our choices and actions, being prepared to accept the consequences.

    We can't just willy nilly elect folks without doing our due diligence and vetting these folks, otherwise we're gonna see a whole lot more of this bullsh!t coming from not only the beltway, but our states as well.

    In the end, outlawing smoking in public spaces is an illegal act. It presupposes that the rights of some folks is greater than those of others, due in large part to the simple fact of having the political favor of whatever administration is in power.

    If I am a business owner and want to allow my patrons to smoke in my establishment, I should be able to do so... Knowing full well that this might offend the sensibilities of "Tobacco Deniers" and therefore willing to suffer any financial consequences as a result of their "non-patronage".

    For a "Tobacco Denier" to demand that someone cease enjoying their tobacco, based solely on the "Denier's" Self Appointed "Offendedness", is no different than a person barging into an establishment that decided not to allow smoking, and demand that they be allowed to do so, feigning equal offendedness.

    We can't have it both ways folks. We can't eat our cake and have it too, or to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin... "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    YMMV

    Dino

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. jpmcwjr

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    In my travels in the US, there might as well be a federal ban on smoking in restaurants and bars as well as offices. Most states have similar bans- or perhaps they're local ones. I haven't seen anyone light up inside for years.

    Here're the opening sentences:

    Last Saturday was the tenth anniversary of the introduction in England of a ban on smoking in enclosed public workplaces. I had a walk-on part in the drama of the ban: as a clerk on the House of Commons Health Committee, I drafted its report on the Government’s proposed legislation, which made a number of recommendations, largely for a more comprehensive and draconian ban, without the exemptions the Government had intended to enshrine in the law.

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. warren

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    Some pubs in Ireland consider the ban to be the cause of closing. When your clientele is predominately farmers, pipe or cigarette in hand and they start doing their drinking at home, revenues dry up. These are small family holdings and were dependent on the neighboring farmers for most of their revenue.

    rlunderhill: Are you equating weed to tobacco? Can you point out the equivalency please?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. brightleaf

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    The author pretend to be a libertarian but acts more like a change agent. He talks about the bartender's rights in a private club needing to be protected. Are bartender's in private clubs appointed their job by the government? I have heard of cradle to grave plans and school to work government plans, used to control every aspect of a person's life, but I doubt that job placement is enforced in any country.

    POSSIBLY, contentment is not only the chief element of life, but also one of the very foundations of society. If this be so, then as Tobacco is the enemy of malice, friend of virtue, and a direct cause for content, its use should be encouraged. -J.W. Cundall 1901
    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. deathmetal

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    I think society is shifting from a bureaucracy that tries to manage our lives to a competitive arena where those who do it right survive and the others end up in the poorhouse. Personally, I find this encouraging; people are not punished enough for stupidity and incompetence, while the competent are endlessly punished with a need to subsidize the weak.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. pappymac

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    I will have to search for the link, but I recently read an article which pointed out that the whole issue of second hand smoke is based on faulty science. It started with a study done in Idaho or Montana which showed a dramatic decrease in heart attacks among non-smokers after a smoking ban was initiated. Problem was the study was only about 300 or so subjects and didn't take into account other factors such as a change in diet. Other's seized upon the data and used it to justify bans.

    I am glad we have a good admin and responsible moderators.

    Heave to you dark colored ship under sail! Prepare to be boarded!
    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. mso489

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    Is Western Civilization dying or just waking up to not being the only history in town? Of course, if we nuke ourselves, people and a majority of animal species will go extinct, immediately or shortly, but we could work against that. In Shakespeare, when the play becomes luridly tragic, Will brings on the comedy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. perdurabo

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    What history is more important than a society that elevates the Individual above a collective or a monarch?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. perdurabo

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    By the way Brother Briarfriar, hasn't been around in awhile. Hey Briarfriar, ...!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. brightleaf

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    I missed what you were referring to mso489. Could you elaborate?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. lazar

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    mso489 wins.

    As for Western Civilization dying, nobody wants to live in that shithole Sweden, anyway. There must be something wrong with a place that is consistently ranked in top 10 happiest places to live on Earth. I'll give you the UK, though - they're committing slow, painful self-harm by leaving the EU and will be like an amputated limb floating in the sea....

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. brightleaf

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    Oh I get it now. I do not think Western Civilization is dying, but I think freedom is.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. perdurabo

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    How much annual income do I have give up to live in the paradise Sweden?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. warren

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    The EU purchased a few countries some years ago with huge outlays of moneys.. Now, with the moneys drying up, centuries old animosities are rising. I'd give the EU only a few more years before it settles into a fairly loose confederation, based on trade, of exclusively northern European countries. It can't survive as currently structured with the successful northern countries underwriting the southerly ones.

    The French, like the English do not like being under the German boot. The Irish sold their birthright for a lot of money. It took them seven centuries to gain their freedom from England and they passed it on to the EU for coin which is now, long gone, only a memory. That won't last either. The Irish are not happy sharing their fishing areas with the Spanish and, in the country, turf cutters wish to continue their livelihood.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. lazar

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    Nobody is under anybody's boot in the EU, and they all remain sovereign nations despite the propaganda. The fortunes of the UK and Ireland are directly related to EU membership benefits, and Ireland is extremely pro-EU. This idea that the EU is some monolithic evil empire imposing its will on these poor countries and depriving them of their freedom is one of the biggest snake-oil cons on the century. These countries ARE the EU, and have an equal say in what it does.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. warren

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    Please, parse my statements more closely. "monolithic evil empire" are your words, not mine.

    Dublin is pro-EU. That I'll grant you. Get into the hinterlands and you get an entirely different perspective. Sovereign nations? To a limited extent yes. Certain rights have been left them, others ceded to the EU.

    You can't disagree that the poorer member nations reap the benefits of the union while contributing little. I'm simply stating that certain rights have been ceded to the EU and that many people are unhappy with that and, as currently constructed, the EU cannot possibly survive. Why? Too much historical baggage, too much slaughter in past years, years of distrust. Support for the EU is predominantly in the large cities. Too many people in the hinterlands are unhappy at the loss of their livelihoods and many restrictions, forced sharing of resources, is slowly eroding support.

    I have no doubt that the EU will survive in the form of a "trading union" where individual members will be deciding what is best for their country, not an international, self-serving bunch of bureaucrats. Those days are melting away with the rise in nationalism. Even Soros has voiced despair more than once that his vision may not come to fruition.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. davek

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    This.

    The big secret will come out some day, which is that most cancers are related to industrial pollution. Smoking is a convenient scapegoat; certainly it is likely that inhaling any kind of particulate smoke will increase the risk, but for whatever reason, the blame is over-stated in my view.

    Smoking is cancer causing for sure. But industrial pollution is as big a cause. Cancer is an industrial disease and much more common now that hundreds of years ago. The point being that, while smokers are targeted, nothing is done about the other. ($$$)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. perdurabo

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    I'm not being rude, but I love when Europe is sighted as some great place to live. And granted it's probably just as good as living almost anywhere else in the world. If it's such a wonderfu/happy place why not pack up and move there?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. lazar

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    Pedurabo - I lived there for 20 years, came back to the U.S a few years ago for family reasons, and am planning on returning to Europe as soon as possible. For
    many reasons. But I'm lucky in being legally able to do so. For most people it's not easy to just pack up and move to a foreign country, not only the red tape but also family responsibilities, finances, work, language, etc.

    As for nationalism, I believe the recent surges are the dead-cat-bounce of a failed and dying ideology. It has never lasted long in the past and it's far too late for it now.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. perdurabo

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    I hope it all works out for you, Lazar.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. brightleaf

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    "As for nationalism, I believe the recent surges are the dead-cat-bounce of a failed and dying ideology. It has never lasted long in the past and it's far too late for it now."

    The plans to destroy nationalism have been in progress for a long time. About a hundred years ago H.G. Wells, through the writing of many books, laid out the plans for world socialism and world government, plans that were diligently followed by Western Civilization. I do recall him being especially frustrated by the British and their tendency towards nationalism, but he stressed the same formula for it's "cure." Education of the children in public schools. With some countries in the E.U banning home school, and the significant passage of time since these plans have been under way, I tend to agree with lazar about it being too late now. It could be that there is more to Europe than Wells understood, and the cause of his frustration may be more deep rooted than he guessed.

    There are many lessons in history to study, and people have access to more knowledge than ever before. What the outcome will be is unknown. Will people put up with a ban on smoking forever? I don't think so. Most of the money that pays for anti-smoking propaganda and anti-smoking research comes from the big tobacco companies as tribute, due to their defeat in the courtroom. Once they go bankrupt who will finance all of the anti-tobacco propaganda and anti-smoking research? The antis are not going to pay out of their own pockets.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. deathmetal

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    But industrial pollution is as big a cause. Cancer is an industrial disease and much more common now that hundreds of years ago. The point being that, while smokers are targeted, nothing is done about the other.

    It's much easier to beat up on smokers than do something about industrial pollution. Good point.


    There are many lessons in history to study, and people have access to more knowledge than ever before.

    And world IQ is dropping, so they will stare at that knowledge and then think, "I know! I'll go see what Kim K is up to."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. ericusrex

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    Down with the Gubmint!

    Libertarians are the biggest bunch of whiny, selfish, hypocritical fools this country has ever seen.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. perdurabo

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    Where did the "Libertarian" rant come from? I brought the Cracker Jacks and Ye Olde Signe. Proceed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. sablebrush52

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    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. davet

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    I believe that in some instances a smoking ban can be a little extreme....

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. lazar

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    Down with the Gubmint!

    Libertarians are the biggest bunch of whiny, selfish, hypocritical fools this country has ever seen.

    The weird thing is how they often use the rhetoric of the 60s anti-establishment counter-culture to express ideas that would antithetical to their other beliefs. No wonder Dennis Hopper was so confused.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. philairfoil

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    We as free men in the USA have let the 'Borg' TELL us whats best. If a business wants to allow smoking, whats the problem?

    If a business doesn't want to provide multisex bathrooms, that's a crime?

    It smacks of 1984 to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. brian64

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    +1 philairfoil...there are some things I disagreed with Carlin about, but that's not one of them.

    The weird thing is how they often use the rhetoric of the 60s anti-establishment counter-culture to express ideas that would antithetical to their other beliefs.

    Those who take a complex view of reality often seem confused to those who take a simplistic view.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. deathmetal

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    The weird thing is how they often use the rhetoric of the 60s anti-establishment counter-culture to express ideas that would antithetical to their other beliefs.

    This is not confusing at all. Libertarians are what were once known as "classical liberals," or those who accept the egalitarian regime but want to conserve competition as a means of transitioning forced equality into meritocracy.

    It is only when they claim to be conservatives that they are confused. The most interesting variant of libertarianism for me is anarcho-capitalism, which I do not oppose but do not see as a complete solution, being an anarcho-monarchist among other things.

    Mainly what I like about libertarians is the high quality writing. Hoppe, Reason.com, ESR, etc.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. philairfoil

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    Control...smoking control, gun control, election control, health control, media control, language control...what's next?

    Who cares?

    Whose gonna win the Super bowl?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. brightleaf

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    ericusrex: "Down with the Gubmint!

    Libertarians are the biggest bunch of whiny, selfish, hypocritical fools this country has ever seen."

    Making up a statement, and then acting as if someone else said it is nothing more than a lie. Calling someone who has a different political belief than you "whiny, selfish, and a hypocritical fool" is against the rules of this forum. In fact, your whole post was whiny. I never met a libertarian who was against the government. Every one of them I met is pro government. Our government is the Constitution, it is when people in office go against government that they speak out. Trying to prevent someone from destroying this government is patriotic, pro government behavior, trying to stop them is treason.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. perdurabo

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    Classical Liberalism is inherent in Conservatism and Libertarianism. Both are philosophies that rely on Human experience to form their principles. Neither really are far from one another. I find that Libertarians like to boast being Libertarian around their conservative and Progressive friends. Trying to appear different. The biggest difference between Libertarian and Conservative thought, is a Conservative's devotion to the family Nucleus. Which the American Founders espoused. Both are at odds and are the adverse to Progressivism, which is a bastard child of Marxism. A forced ideology that degrades human kind into a ditch of everlasting poverty and selfless devotion to a religious style of control on the collective.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. jpmcwjr

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    Control...smoking control, gun control, election control, health control, media control, language control...what's next?

    Thought control, of course!


    Whose gonna win the Super bowl?

    Da Pats, that's who's gonna win.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  52. philairfoil

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    Thought control! whoda thunkit? We are already there.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. brian64

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    I never met a libertarian who was against the government. Every one of them I met is pro government. Our government is the Constitution

    It is very interesting that being "pro-Constitution" tends to be equated with being "anti-government" these days.

    Thought control! whoda thunkit? We are already there.

    That's why freedom of speech is so important. When you're afraid to say something you subconsciously become afraid to think it as well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  54. lazar

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    Progressivism, which is a bastard child of Marxism. A forced ideology that degrades human kind into a ditch of everlasting poverty and selfless devotion to a religious style of control on the collective.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  55. perdurabo

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    Yea I'd if I was on the wrong side of history.

    You know the Human experience piece can be a.......

    Posted 1 year ago #
  56. seacaptain

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    What history is more important than a society that elevates the Individual above a collective or a monarch?

    That's the whole discussion in a nutshell. What made Western civilization unique and great was the emphasis on and protection of individual rights. To the degree Western civilization is dying (and it is), is the degree to which we have abandoned individual rights in favor of rights based on what politically favored group you belong to.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  57. lazar

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    If Western civilization is dying it's because it does things like giving human rights to corporations, and making greed and selfishness into virtues in total contrast to the religion its members claim to follow. I'm not sure why people seem to think socialism (in all its various forms) is not "Western" and that nationalism and libertarianism are.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  58. warren

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    Western Civilization is doing what it has always done, morphing not ... dying.

    Socialism, in my opinion, is oppressive as it sucks the fun, the risk and the individualism out of life. And, of course when there is no more moneys to sucked from the workers, it implodes in on itself. Again, an opinion only and one etched in stone. I like the idea of being responsible for myself, my health care or lack thereof, my right to try and fail or succeed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  59. brightleaf

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    "If Western civilization is dying it's because it does things like giving human rights to corporations, and making greed and selfishness into virtues in total contrast to the religion its members claim to follow. I'm not sure why people seem to think socialism (in all its various forms) is not "Western" and that nationalism and libertarianism are."
    You are right that Western Civilization includes Socialism. There is a difference between the relationship of Socialism and religion, and the relationship of religion and the United State's Government. The people of the United States founded this country to protect those from religious persecution. Therefore it's government had no jurisdiction over it's citizen's religion. The more important point can be found in understanding that the Constitution was government created from the power of self government inherent in the people, it was government that recognized the Unalienable rights endowed in each man by his Creator. In other words, God was above man and God was above government. Man was not God, Government was not God, and the rights of man were recognized as being unable to be taken away. Socialism holds the Government to be the highest authority, giving it power to take away a person's rights. It is in essence, no different from the religious persecution that the people of the United States were opposed to. Socialism is antithetical to the idea of the United States, not antithetical to Western Civilization.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  60. seacaptain

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    If Western civilization is dying it's because it does things like giving human rights to corporations, and making greed and selfishness into virtues in total contrast to the religion its members claim to follow. I'm not sure why people seem to think socialism (in all its various forms) is not "Western" and that nationalism and libertarianism are.

    Two points:

    1. As mentioned above, socialism isn't "Western" because it diminishes individual rights and elevates group rights above the individual. Individual rights are a Western construct. You can get socialism anywhere in the world, just look around.

    2. We would probably agree on some things about corporations, but it's funny how socialists always get to define what "greed" and "selfishness" are, and their remedy is ALWAYS to use government power to take money/resources by force from INDIVIDUALS.

    And, as far as selfishness goes, I'm sure you realize that Westerners are FAR more generous and give FAR more to charity than any other people on the planet. Socialism is a cancer in every society it was ever implemented.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  61. sablebrush52

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    I wish Western Civilization would collapse already. These whiny bitch sessions filled with all the interminable sameness of hive mind thought kidding itself that it's independent and critical in its thinking or onto a greater truth are really boring. Bring on the kool aid and let's get this over and done with.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  62. perdurabo

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    I find with the boring threads(or the threads that become boring) I just don't post.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  63. perdurabo

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    Speaking of collaspe, This thread will collapse on its own weight way before Western Civilization.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  64. perdurabo

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    Comment deleted, comment way to funny for the forum.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  65. brightleaf

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    "I wish Western Civilization would collapse already."
    Posting hate to destroy a thread ("let's get this over and done with"), in order to prohibit other people's ability to have a discussion is a disgusting tactic.
    You could join a communist country. You have made it clear that you've accumulated the funds to move.
    I like living in a country where everyone is recognized as being sovereign, not just the wealthy.

    Where our government gets the idea that they have authority over smoking originates from their power to regulate interstate commerce. The idea that have the power to affect our lifestyle choices comes from socialism and socialized healthcare. The author of the Original Post article claims to be for freedom, yet he confessed to drafting legislation to ban smoking in private clubs because of his beliefs. His actions contradict his claimed political beliefs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  66. brian64

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    their remedy is ALWAYS to use government power to take money/resources by force from INDIVIDUALS.

    This is the heart of the matter imo. If people want some kind of “socialist” system, go right ahead and start some type of collective organization or commune or something...as long as it’s voluntary. Just don’t try to use the government to force me to participate at gun point.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  67. seacaptain

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    Socialism - Ideas so good, they're mandatory.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  68. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    The hive is abuzz predictably with erroneous pronouncements and judgements.

    The bats within it are flapping into the belfry walls.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  69. yaddy306

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    I'm not sure you guys could make this thread any more political.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  70. brian64

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    The hive is abuzz

    The bats within it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfwhNhC5Tg

    Posted 1 year ago #

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