Talk to me about tonquin.

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tarheel1

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 16, 2014
936
2
In my 17 years i have yet to try or even smell a blend that uses tonquin. I guess this is what is applied to make a lakeland blend correct? I guess i will never know unless i try it, so what say you? What do you think of it?

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
605
Tonquin is in some Lakeland blends, like 1792 Flake, which also has a ton of dark fired leaf. If you like Capstan, it's probably because of the tonquin. Tonquin has a weird sort of vanilla-like flavor to it.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,433
I associate tonquin and geranium oil with ghosting, so designate a pipe, maybe a cob for starters. I'm not afraid

of ghosts, mostly, but those ghosts just don't go away, according to the lore. I've never tried Lakelands, but

at some point, I could. That's what that unused cob is doing on the rack, maybe. It doesn't sound good, old

lady soap, and tonquin, but some can't get enough.

 

texmexpipe

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 20, 2014
998
246
Don't be afraid of it, but do know that it is impossible to get out of a pipe. I have one that is only used for lakelands, which I've all but run out of here recently. They are a nice change of pace with flavor, but they don't sacrifice strength.

 

oldreddog

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 4, 2014
923
6
I like it but I suspect its a love/hate flavor, indeed as Lakelands tend to be. I find it to be a strong café crème/vanilla flavor.
1792 Flake is delicious and I also get some tonquin coming trough when I smoke GH Rum Twist and Kendal Cream Flake.

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
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blendtobac

Lifer
Oct 16, 2009
1,237
213
Tonquin is the extract from the Tonka bean, and it has an unusual vanilla-like aroma. In Mexico, it's often used as a substitute for vanilla in ice cream and the like, primarily because it grows in Central and South America, as is far less expensive. Deertongue has a similar flavor and aroma, primarily because they both contain coumarin, which is the actual source of the flavor.
Russ

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
ph--Tonka-biolandes-1232023928.jpg

:
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/tonquin-flavoured-blends
:
http://snuffhouse.org/discussion/5706/tonka-tonquin-coumarin-etc
:
http://www.scents-of-earth.com/tonka.html

Tonka beans are said to lighten one's mood and be emotionally balancing.

Magical Associations: courage, prosperity, luck

Astrological Association: Taurus, Libra

Planetary Association: Venus

Aromatic Note: Base note


:P
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http://healthmunsta.hubpages.com/hub/Benefits-of-Tonka-Bean-Oil
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books


books

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books

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books

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books

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thorntons-tonka-bean.jpg


 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
I read somewhere - but just can't remember - they don't put tonka bean anymore in tobaccos because it's toxic, or something? So, that basically 1792 and Bracken Flakes have similar casings than tonquin but it's not it.
if that makes any sense.
You're right.
They most likely use a synthetic coumarin or something similar,

I really have no idea.
Here's an interesting article:

Whats the problem?

The FDA dubiously identified coumarin as a carcinogen in 1954. Subsequent studies initially upheld this opinion, but then disproved it. The net result is that because of the controversy, it is not used in foods (although it is famously present in many, including strawberries!).
Earlier reports of the toxicity and carcinogenicity of coumarin are now believed to be due to impurities, but coumarin is banned in foods in USA (21CFR 189.130), Japan, India, & the EC, and was banned in Germany from 1970 to 1991 (the ban is now replaced by a concentration limit) etc. Since many derivatives of coumarin are commercial poisons, e.g. warfarin, the well-known rat poison, it has been difficult to persuade people of coumarin’s safety. A detailed discussion of the beneficial uses of Melilotus extract & coumarin in phytotherapy (and there are many) & any remaining toxicological issues are given in a Meliltotus monograph by Mills and Bone.
etc etc etc


http://www.cropwatch.org/nlet4art4.htm

:

:

:
But,

I think the best answer comes from Rusty:
Re: talk to me about tonquin.
Post by Rusty » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:12 pm
It's interesting to look at the language SG uses in describing 1792, "Dark-fired leaf hot pressed and cut into a 6" flake before adding a dressing of Tonquin flavour. A full strength, full flavoured tobacco." That suggests that it is like Tonquin but not necessarily the extract from the Tonka bean. There are alternative synthetic compounds that do not contain coumarin but do have the same flavour. I checked the distributor (Kohlhase Kopp) in Germany, where 1792 would be prohibited from sales if it contained Coumarin/was extract from Tonka bean, and they just say that it's aromatic and do not mention Tonquin flavour at all. Chickens. The tobacco industry is well aware of other equivalent alternatives that pose a lot less product liability risk and are not prohibited in tobacco in countries that do prohibit coumarin eg Germany. This exactly what BAT did with the Export Imperial tobacco set and everyone was being shipped the same version. Nothing indicates that they made different versions for different markets. They modified the flavourings and that remained the case when they were manufacturing outsourced to STG in Denmark. Domestic UK production from Imperial tobacco themselves certainly did still contain Coumarin in the 70's and we know this because BAT was using their flavourings on the export set until the project to devise new ones compliant with Germany's new law. This is two distinct manufacturers that have different markets. With a single manufacturer they would likely adopt the most stringent rules for one flavouring for all markets. So I suspect that SG likely replaced the Tonka bean extract with an equivalent that isn't prohibited. There are no obvious reasons why they would have different versions for different markets. That would increase risk of violation. And AFAIK nobody has ever commented about differences in 1792 based upon markets. I would guess that places that regulate content have likely eliminated Tonka bean extract and coumarin because it's prohibited in most of the markets except the US & UK. It's much easier to use an acceptable substitute and not take an unwarranted risk. Deerstongue is something else again.
We'll have to wait and see what the FDA decides when they're faced with some US manufacturers still using deertongue. We'll also get to see whether any imports test as having coumarin. In their testing the FDA found coumarin in cig tobaccos despite an agreement not to use it with the manufacturers. So who knows? :D
** Update: I checked the Legacy Tob documents library to see how many blends in the past used either Deertongue or Tonka Bean extract for flavouring. It's amazing how many there were eg Sail, Erinmore, some of the Dunhill blends, many of the Imperial Tob blends, etc. It was quite widespread. Now it seems that most of them cannot use it anymore because of strict additive limitations adopted by some countries where PT sales are significant. So if the product has broad distribution ie through Europe, Canada Australia then I think it's very likely that a substitute that contains virtually no Coumarin is now in use. This whole issue blew up in the 70's & 80's in South America and Europe. For the Big tobacco companies to maintain product distribution they would have to substitute an alternative for flavouring. So, except for some blends in the US (not widely distrib.), it's very likely mostly gone, replaced with alternate toppings.
http://christianpipesmokers.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37222
*​

 

jitterbugdude

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 25, 2014
993
8
Tonka beans will not ghost your pipe, it's the other flavorings that are added to tobacco that will. Tonka and its cousin Deer Tongue are very safe to use. I posted this little article on FairTradeTobacco
http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/5454-Deer-Tongue-Tonka-Beans-Safety-and-Use?highlight=deer+tongue

 

captainbob

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 5, 2010
765
2
My understanding is that coumarin is toxic. In dealing with professional flavoring companies over the years,I have learned that they do a synthetic/chemical imitation of coumarin. On the other hand, the herb deer-tongue, is not toxic. Both of these are essentially a vanilla "type" flavor but tilted in a different direction. Vanilla by itself is "flat" unless enhanced with another spice or flavoring ingredient. When appropriately enhanced, vanilla extract gives a companion flavoring an extremely smooth and mellow characteristic. Deer-tongue is extremely expensive and hard to come by. I remember the "late" Craig Tarler of C&D telling me that he acquired a pallet of deer-tongue (quite expensive) and that he was guarding it with his life. If you try a blend containing deer-tongue, please use a specific pipe for it. You can never get rid of the "ghosting" of deer-tongue. I have two pipes dedicated to such blends and nothing else. I am rewarded for that when I smoke a blend containing deer-tongue. It's worth trying. Just don't use a pipe that you may desire to convert to a non-deer-tongue blend as you will "always" taste the herb.

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andrew

Lifer
Feb 13, 2013
3,042
400
I don't know if it's in G&H's Bob's Chocolate flake or not, but if it is I love it. I put BCF in the category if God made an aromatic it would be BCF.

 

jitterbugdude

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 25, 2014
993
8
"My understanding is that coumarin is toxic." Completely false. Read the article I posted in FairTradeTobacco.com

As a caveat, just about anything is toxic if consumed in excessive doses. Here is the article:
Over the past year I have become a big fan of adding Deer's Tongue (DT) to a few of my pipe blends. I am getting quite tired of reading about how dangerous it is so I thought I'd set the record straight. For most of this little article I will refer to DT and Tonka Beans (TB) collectively as Coumarin since this is the active ingredient in the two.
Deer Tongue is an herb that grows mainly in the South East of the U.S. It had been used historically to add a Vanilla flavor to things like ice cream and tobacco. The FDA in its infinite wisdom banned its use in the '50's due to rats studies showing that the active ingredient in DT was Coumarin and was toxic to the liver. Adding to the "scare" of how dangerous it was a researcher came along and figured out a way to make an anti coagulant out of it. He called it Coumadin and trademarked it as the prescription drug Warfarin. Even though banned, the tobacco industry supposedly was still using it through the '70's!
The truth is, Coumarin has absolutely no blood thinning effects whatsoever. The studies in rats showing liver toxicity are irrelevant to humans since we metabolize Coumarin via a different pathway than rats. The European version (EFSA) of the FDA has reviewed this issue several times over the years and has concluded that the No Observed Adverse Effects Limit (NOAEL) is 10mg/kg. Since there is a small fraction of humans that metabolize Coumarin differently the EFSA used a safety factor of 10 to state that Coumarin is safe to take at 1mg/kg of body weight. The German version of the FDA has said that 25mg/kg is the lowest dose that would cause liver damage in humans.
So.. Both DT and TB contain about 3% by weight of Coumarin. This is the amount of "free" coumarin available. They also contain bound coumarin but this cannot be absorbed.
What this means: If you were to make a pipe blend containing 5% DT (5% is on the high side for using as a flavor constituent) you would get about 4.5mg of coumarin per bowl, based on a bowl containing about 3g of tobacco. So, if you weighed about 160lbs (73kg) you would have to smoke about 16 bowls everyday to get to the NOAEL! I should note that the NOAEL is standard measurement used to show product safety. It is much more "safe" to use than the LD50 measurement. NOAEL means there is NO EFFECT AT ALL at that limit!
USAGE: I like to use DT at 5% of my blend. That % is a little on the high side but I like it. If you use DT I'd suggest starting out at 2% and work your way up till you find something you like. DT is available in either powder or cut. I would not recommend the powder because it would not mix with shredded leaf. On the other hand, if you are using it for Snus/Dip, the powder would be the preferred form. Penn Herb sells the cut and powdered version of DT and 4Noggins sells the powdered version.
Tonka Beans weigh on average 1.25g per bean. They are usually ground to a powder and then added to alcohol to extract the flavor. The alcohol mixture is then sprayed onto the tobacco. I have used water and alcohol, separately and have not noticed a difference in the taste. Personally, I do not care for tonka beans because I get a much better (more exact) dose of Coumarin when I use DT. I do not have to grind it up and dilute it with alcohol. I just add it to my shredded tobacco. Tonka Beans are readily available on Ebay.
Additionally, Coumarin is supposed to be the most used ingredient in the cosmetics industry for perfumes and lotions. It is absorbed by the skin. This is why the EFSA has periodically reviewed it. Also, Cinnamon contains 4% by weight of Coumarin yet I do not see the FDA banning cinnamon! There are 2 types of Cinnamon, Cassia is the one that contains 4% Coumarin and it is the one consumed by close to 99% of the people worldwide. Ceylon cinnamon is the "true" cinnamon and it contains negligible amounts of coumarin.

Keep in mind too that pre diabetics and diabetics are taking at least 2g per day of Cassia cinnamon to combat diabetes. This dose would yield about 800mg of Coumarin! There is some debate though that the steam distillation process used to encapsulate cinnamon for the "vitamin" market removes the coumarin.
Bottom Line: Deer Tongue and Tonka Beans are perfectly safe to consume in pipe tobacco as well as dip and snus.

 
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