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Storing Tobacco - Vacuum Storage

(35 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by peckinpahhombre
  • Latest reply from Spencer
  1. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Previously I have stored my Motzek Strang in mylar bags: See http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/the-fine-art-of-tobacco-preparation-amp-cellaring

    Today I received a new shipment of Strang and decided to use my vaccum sealer so seal it.

    Here's the video.

    [url= VID_20151025_135157 from Peckinpahhombre on Vimeo.][/url]

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Well, that didn't work. Hmmm . . .

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    I give up, lol.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    ah, now it works

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    I was playing around with the vacuum sealer and sealed up a few tins of JA LF I had laying around. My experiment is below.

    One question I had is whether the vacuum effect could pop the tins. Any thoughts? I guess I could open the bag to figure that out but was wondering if any of you have had any experience.

    [url=https://vimeo.com/143562010][/url]

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    A short postscript to this thread.

    I was about to open a C&D style tin and thought it would be fun to see what happens if I tried to vacuum seal one of those type of tins in a bag.

    Well, let's just say that the bag sealed BUT the tin itself swelled up and bowed out and looked like a baseball when I was done. It didn't pop though.

    Not sure why that happened but assume it has to do with the fact that those tins are not vacuum sealed.

    I have also been curious as to whether vacuum sealing latakia or aromatic blends would prevent them from fading over time as they normally do with age. I don't really want to wait 20 years to see how that experiment pans out, though.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. fmgee

    fmgee

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    Well, let's just say that the bag sealed BUT the tin itself swelled up and bowed out and looked like a baseball when I was done. It didn't pop though.

    I guess that says something about the tin seal quality. I am surprised it would swell up just because the surrounding pressure was reduced. Was it a well aged tin?

    I have also been curious as to whether vacuum sealing latakia or aromatic blends would prevent them from fading over time as they normally do with age

    Or could it speeds up the aging process by moving to anaerobic conditions faster?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. cortezattic

    Cortez

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    It was hard to tell if the seal broke on one or two of the square tins, but it looked that way initially.
    The Mac Baren Factory Tour video part 3 stated that they evacuate round flats to 40% of an atmosphere.
    Good enough to hold the lid snug, yet allow enough O₂ for microbial action.
    It's easy to underestimate the power of one atmosphere of pressure as that C&D tin dramatically demonstrated.

    I once used a simple kitchen grade vacuum to preserve a folded newspaper on the occasion of my granddaughter's birth.
    I thought it would be an interesting read for her in 50yrs. I was amazed at the degree to which the newspaper was crushed.

    I find myself sitting idly on the line dividing past and future,
    as if I could kill time without injuring eternity. -- Thoreau
    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. peckinpahhombre

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    I opened the bag with the sealed square tins and all were still fully and completely sealed.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    Peck, Have you tried to vaccum with a mylar bag? Be curious to know how it works out.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. cosmicfolklore

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    I've had several C&D and GLP and D&R tins swell up on me when we've had tropical storms pass through. I heard a bunch of tinging in the cellar, and when I opened the doors, they started rolling around like baseballs.
    Since I broke my hip a few years ago, I can feel it in my bones when the tins are about to swell up, ha ha.

    Michael
    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

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    Peck-

    If the seal on the experimental tin had been broken, I am pretty sure it would not have swollen. And that it did swell doesn't mean it hadn't been vacuumed sealed; only that the differential was changed enough so the external pressure became lower than the internal pressure.

    And the tins of P are stiff enough to resist bowing more than most tins.

    I have also been curious as to whether vacuum sealing latakia or aromatic blends would prevent them from fading over time as they normally do with age. I don't really want to wait 20 years to see how that experiment pans out, though.
    Is this on top of being tinned or jarred to begin with? I'm of the thought that the less introduced air, the better, though some are of the school that you need to leave room for air for best aging.
    My guess is that it wouldn't hurt, and could help.

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Hey JP,

    That makes sense. Of course, the C&D type tins are not vacuum sealed, or at least that's what I have been told.

    I will add that I will probably vacuum seal more square tins to protect them, though I will probably adjust the level of the vacuum down to minimize the extreme pressure.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    I have not tried mylar, by the way. Anyone have any thoughts about whether you can vacuum seal mylar bags?

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    I'm pretty sure I read in the manufacturer's literature that your sealer was capable of doing mylar bags. There probably is a limit as to what thickness will work though.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. lordofthepiperings

    lordofthepiperings

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    Since I mostly enjoy aromatics I think I may have to buy my better half one of those food saver vacuum sealer things and load a bag up with some 1Q to see how it is in a five years or so.

    "The thinking man always smokes a Peterson." -Peterson of Dublin
    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. cortezattic

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    From what little I have found on the subject of aging aromatics, don't expect anything good to happen to 1-Q in 5yrs.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. deathmetal

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    Well, let's just say that the bag sealed BUT the tin itself swelled up and bowed out and looked like a baseball when I was done. It didn't pop though.

    Not sure why that happened but assume it has to do with the fact that those tins are not vacuum sealed.

    More likely that internal pressure was held in check by atmosphere pressure. Deprive them of that atmosphere, and they swell up. Either they're fermenting, or there's a leprechaun in there farting rainbows.

    "My own experience has been that the tools I need for my trade are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey." -- William Faulkner

    The Metal Mixtures
    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. deathmetal

    deathmetal

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    1Q turns into Formica if you age it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Tried vacuum sealing a mylar bag and it worked fine.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. darwin

    darwin

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    According to the great and powerful Oz (Greg Pease) vacuum sealing is not recommended but a really good mechanical seal is a requirement. I use 5mm metallized Mylar bags exclusively for cellaring both bulk and tins and seal them with a dedicated heavy-duty sealer meant expressly for the purpose.

    Viewing with alarm since 1948.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    According to the great and powerful Oz (Greg Pease) vacuum sealing is not recommended but a really good mechanical seal is a requirement. I use 5mm metallized Mylar bags exclusively for cellaring both bulk and tins and seal them with a dedicated heavy-duty sealer meant expressly for the purpose.

    Yeah, I have what sounds like the same mylar set up. My vacuum sealer is for food, but I was just experimenting with tobacco. What triggered it is that I received a shipment of some old Three Nuns tins that came vacuum sealed.

    Still, leaving aside what Oz thinks, it would be an interesting experiment as to whether a vacuum seal would halt the fading of latakia. I guess the fundamental question is: What makes latakia fade over time? Is it the presence of oxygen, the passage of time, or a combination of the two?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. darwin

    darwin

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    If you're talking about lat blends in tins then vacuum sealing those will likely make little difference unless the tin's original seal is faulty. I can think of at least two reasons why lat seems to fade over the years. The first one is that the flavor components oxidize over the time that oxygen is still present in the blend. The second is that over time the virginia component of the blends undergoes anaerobic fermentation which might cause them to be a bit more flavor forward than they were originally thus seeming to slide the lat a bit into the background. Could be that if a lat blend is seriously vacuum sealed without a tin thereby reducing the oxygen content as much as possible then the flavor balance might not change or mellow as much as if it were kept in the tin. Wild guesses really. I've had six year old Nightcap and could taste little difference but my palate is not that sophisticated anyway.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. skraps

    skrapsoftobacco

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    I would suspect that if you really wanted to try and remove oxygen from the bag, the oxygen absorbers available from most mylar distributors would be the way to go. Then you can use the heavy duty mylar, not have to worry about vacuum sealing and remove the primary catalyst to aging or oxidation.

    "People are not made better by a briar. An idiot before smoking a pipe is still an idiot after smoking a pipe, they're just more likely to speak less drivel with something in their mouth. For that, all society should be grateful."

    - Bob Runowski
    Posted 3 years ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    I have a bunch of Lat blends stored in mylar bags. Some are Nitrogen flushed and some have O2 Absorbers in them. We'll see how they taste in 2025.

    Something odd is going on with Latakia fading over time. The Lat in HH Vintage Syrian is already 20-30 years old. So has it already faded? The whole leaf Lat from Whole Leaf Tobacco is from 1997 and it tastes fine.

    I think darwin might be onto something. Maybe the Lat is not fading but the Virginia's flavor enhances as it ages, muting the Lat somewhat. Looks like I need to put a few pounds of whole leaf Lat in to deep storage too.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. cosmicfolklore

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    My $0.02 is that just because "some" latakia blends and aromatics fade in time, does not mean that all of them do. So much crap is passed down in forums and smoking lounges as TRUTH is just speculation. Because one gets a 40 year old tin of some latakia blends that the latakia taste had faded means bunk. Where was the tin stored? did it ever freeze? was it stored in a barn in Minnesota? Mexico? Air pressure of the place it was stored? Bad run that year for that blend? Was it in a jar? was the jar ever opened? resealed? Was something in that blend heavily cased? Topped? an experiment in that run had an inferior burley or Virginia? What other unanticipated environmental factor could have impacted it?

    If latakias all faded in time, then what of reports of people finding nirvana on some 40+ Balkan Sobranie? Or, any of the other sought after Holy Grails.

    Just my thoughts.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. brudnod

    Spencer

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    If someone wrote a treatise on cellaring tobacco and its future prospects we would all use that as the yard stick for what to expect. Since a book does not exist for that, we are stuck with (blessed with) the articles from reputed tobacco producers and their experts. Forum antidotes, random one tin tirades and tweets do not make scientific justification for demonizing the cellaring practice of one or another practitioner. As is frequently said in scientific journals: more study is warranted...
    One can make adequate justification for vacuum sealing on a number of fronts and, hell, if it works well who can to argue? I'd like Peck's take on the vacuum sealing progress at a year or two, then five; that should be constructive feedback.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. plugugly

    plugugly

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    Peck, I recently popped some Lanes aromatic jarred in 2009. No fade in aroma or taste.
    Personally I'm convinced that's because sealing a mason jar or tin actually seals out the Einsteinian Universe and Time thereby stops running within the sealed vessel. Or maybe lack of oxygen just stops the oxidation of the volatile aromatic elements imparted to the leaf by the slow burning fires of Syria or Cyprus or the sure hand of some master blender of sauces and casings. Anyway,I think it will last a looooooooong time.
    My $.02.

    Plugugly

    Lead,Follow-Or Get Out Of The Way!
    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Thanks guys. I may try vacuum sealing myself to see if it prevents me from aging. Should make for an interesting clip.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    elpfeife

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    If you do that, Peck, will you still be able to post here regularly?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  31. cossackjack

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    Yes, Peck, vacuum sealing yourself will guarantee that you will never age another day.

    Before you do that, may I ask for the make & model of your vacuum sealer?

    "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
    Specialization is for insects!" - Robert Heinlein
    Posted 3 years ago #
  32. jpmcwjr

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    Be sure to post it up on YouTube and FaceBook! And good luck! How shall I collect your tobacco tins when you're, uh, all sealed up?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  33. peckinpahhombre

    peckinpahhombre

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    Well I tried, but could barely get my left nut into the bag. Now I am walking around with my left nut vacuum sealed.

    cossack, that is a VacMaster VP215. I bought it this summer for freezing stuff and also for sous vide cooking.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  34. cossackjack

    cossackjack

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    Thanks, Peck.
    I have a Cabela's CG-15 Vacuum Sealer, which is quite serviceable, though not as elegant. I have sealed bulk flakes, ropes, krumble cakes, & plugs, as well as a few tins (Germain's Special Latakia Flake), but cannot yet attest to the effect on their aging. It seals mylar bags as well. The degree of air evacuation can be adjusted to allow for the creation of a partial vacuum. It is also very good for dry food preservation & freezing, especial meats & fish. Not sure how well it would work on Canadian Barristers.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  35. brudnod

    Spencer

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    Cossack, Not sure if you really look more like the french-fry tender on the night shift at Burger King but your avatar is EXCELLENT!

    Posted 3 years ago #

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