I've read a little bit about pipes being 'seconds'. I don't really know how to identify a pipe as such. How can you tell, say a Dunhill second from just a random pipe that says 'England' on it?
'Seconds' Questions
- Thread starter mikethompson
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It is my impression that there are no Dunhill seconds. What's flawed is discarded. Pipes rumored to be, aren't -- Parkers, Hardcastles, Britannia are made as lower priced pipes, the shapes are different, and the briar and finishes are as well. In general, brands that do seconds stamp them, finish them, and market them differently, and don't make a mystery of it.
First off, no second will have the name Dunhill on it. Seconds were pipes that had less well figured wood and/or needed fills. Both Comoy and Sasieni, amongst the top British manufacturers, offered a range of seconds, as well as thirds, fourths, and more, including inexpensive basket pipes. There were all offered under other names. Selling seconds was a way to utilize less desirable briar and make money off of it by down streaming it to the public at lower prices.
Thanks, but I was just using Dunhill as an example and was the first name I could think of.
Is there a list that matches up names to what they could be seconds of? I might have a Comoys second, but have no way to verify.
Is there a list that matches up names to what they could be seconds of? I might have a Comoys second, but have no way to verify.
I have a Twin Bore "Bite Proof" that has all the Comoy stampings on it except the Comoy name. It's shape number 531, has the "Made in London" in a circle with "England" underneath that. A very nice pipe.
Shape numbers help, then there a few books that could help. But give us the name and someone can probably tell you.
That LIVERPOOL 331 straight bulldog you had for sale was most definitely a Comoy second, and from the 30's-40's to boot. That is why I was interested.
Doc
Doc
As a rule of thumb, any pipe simply stamped "London, England" will likely be a second from one of the many established brands.
The keen eyed might be able to determine the manufacturer by comparing the fount of the letters with those of known brands.
That said, I have some pipes fully stamped with the maker's marks but overstamped (usually at an angle) with the word "Reject".
Regards,
Jay.
The keen eyed might be able to determine the manufacturer by comparing the fount of the letters with those of known brands.
That said, I have some pipes fully stamped with the maker's marks but overstamped (usually at an angle) with the word "Reject".
Regards,
Jay.
Every company is different, as is every carver. As Jay points out, some say REJECT, as others point out it sometimes gets all the stamping except for the name. You'll see artisan carvers and some factories put a 2 next to their logo, or overstamping the logo with XXXX rather than REJECT. Some even have "SECOND" stamped on them. Some sell "seconds" under another brand name, or line. Some rusticate to hide a flawed pipe. But not all rustication implies flaws, some rusticate just because it looks good or for a commission, so I don't want to propagate that myth.
Shop widely on pipes, including the ones more expensive than you would buy, and especially look when you can handle and examine pipes in person. This will train your eye so when you encounter basket pipes that are not just cheap and shoddy, you can detect the better workmanship. These are often seconds from quality makers. But I don't think you'll spot any Dunhills. This is how they have maintained their pricey market for factory pipes, by not doing seconds. They make more money grinding up the outtakes to keep the product hard to attain.
I don't for a second believe that Dunhill—or anyone else— grinds up stummels that have major work done on them (time and $ spent), not to mention the cost of the block of briar. Once they've been partially finished and seen to be not up to par, they go off to another entity for finishing and stamping. It'd be real handy to have a sister company or three who'd be happy to take such inventory of the big guy's hands.
"I don't for a second believe that Dunhill—or anyone else— grinds up stummels.."
John, I could well be wrong here but my understanding is that Dunghill did indeed burn up their failed pieces. I can't recall where I came upon that particular snippet but it wasn't too long ago.
Regards,
Jay.
John, I could well be wrong here but my understanding is that Dunghill did indeed burn up their failed pieces. I can't recall where I came upon that particular snippet but it wasn't too long ago.
Regards,
Jay.
If the bowl or shank cracked in process of manufacturing, sure, to the incinerator. And get a few dozen, make a big deal of them destroying those pipes not up to their exacting standards, and what you've got is..... A marketing ploy.
But those pipes discovered to not be quite up to snuff, be it mistakes in shaping, too many fills or sand pits, off drilling, drab grain, etc, have real value as some other marque's first, second or third tier. Sell 'em to your sister company for $25 and they sell 'em for $50. Everyone (in the scheme) wins.
Maybe I am just too cynical!
But those pipes discovered to not be quite up to snuff, be it mistakes in shaping, too many fills or sand pits, off drilling, drab grain, etc, have real value as some other marque's first, second or third tier. Sell 'em to your sister company for $25 and they sell 'em for $50. Everyone (in the scheme) wins.
Maybe I am just too cynical!
I have to believe that jpmcwjr is correct. They burn unrecoverable stummels so that they can make that claim, the rest go somewhere to be finished. Marketing at its finest. But I could be wrong.
So the best way to determine if any given pipe is a second is to search the name stamped on it, failing that looking for a shape number? Is that about right?
Yes pipephil has been a great resource!
Yes pipephil has been a great resource!
My memory could be faulty but I believe I had read that Parker and Hardcastle pipes were made in their own factories until Dunhill bought them out, sometime in the 30s or 40s
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