Pipes Magazine » Pipe Tobacco Discussion

Search Forums  
   
Tags:  No tags yet. 

Please Break Down FDA Ruling

(30 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by cigrmaster
  • Latest reply from brian64
  1. cigrmaster

    cigrmaster

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 13,684

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    For us older folks who have serious reading comprehension, could you please break it down so we can understand it. From what I can dicern, blends after 2007 are on the chopping block is this true? What about blends pre 2007, are these affected in any way? I really appreciate the time you take to edify people of my persuasion who are comprehension problems. Thanks

    Harris
    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. iamn8

    Nate

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2014
    Posts: 4,323

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    From my own dealings on this forum with Harris, I'd like to assist by suggesting any response utilize a large font and small words. You're welcome.

    Nate @ Moody AL
    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. davet

    davet

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,807

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    As it stands:

    Within a year of August, all products will need a warning covering 30% of the packaging.

    Starting August, no new blends without approval.

    All products on the market pre-Feb 2007 are exempt from the FDA approval process (warning labels still apply)

    All post-Feb 2007 SKUs need to submit for approval with an application and a shit-load of money. They'll have two years from August to do so. If they've submitted by then and haven't gotten a response, they can continue for at least another year.

    Each and every SKU needs its own application. I.E, a 50 gram tin and a 100 gram tin, even of the same blend need their own approval.

    That's the hit points. Who knows which parts of what will stand. The biggest piece if legislation on the table right now is attempting to move the "grandfather" date to now so all the stuff on the market now can stay with no issue. That's the most important one.

    "We have an unspoken, mutual understanding to ignore the things we hate about each other so we can continue to enjoy the things we love about each other."
    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. cigrmaster

    cigrmaster

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 13,684

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    pipe, is there a good chance many of these blends could go the way of the dodod? Even if the mfgs do everything the FDA wants, do they have outs in the contracts that could bury these blends?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Right, so the biggest concern is that it's going to be so expensive to get approval for each blend, manufacturers are going to have to choose which ones they want to submit.

    A logical person might say, "but just get all the components approved and then any blend made from them should be fine." The FDA built in language specifically nixing that, which is why each and every SKU needs its own approval. They argue a component change could materially change the safety, so each blend itself needs its own application and approval.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    It is possible that blenders can argue precedent and put forth comparable blends safety documentation as prior proof, but they will still have to apply for each blend. No word on the costs for all of this yet.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    An interesting side effect I forsee coming from this, which I haven't seen addressed, is trade secret information.

    For example, with all of this mandated transparency, we may come to find out some things behind the curtain we didn't really want to know... IE, Escudo really is the same as DNR, or Golden Sliced really doesn't have perique. Not stating those things as fact, but just as an example.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. jacks6

    jacks6

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 1,027

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Trade Secret information won't be exposed - only the FDA will be privy to the % of components and flavoring. The closest consumers will get is an "ingredient listing" like on food packaging but the cigarette industry has successfully pushed that one back

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Right, right, but...

    If they are using prior applications studies as precedent to reduce the cost of the application process, they'll have to reveal that Escudo is the same as DNR. Otherwise, the studies will have to be done for each blend, and I doubt blenders want to duplicate costs and effort that way. See what I mean?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 13,334

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Yes, but I hope this proves a false assumption. Hope, not believe.

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. pipesmokingtom

    pipesmokingtom

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 3,244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I also hope this.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. jacks6

    jacks6

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 1,027

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Right, right, but...

    If they are using prior applications studies as precedent to reduce the cost of the application process, they'll have to reveal that Escudo is the same as DNR. Otherwise, the studies will have to be done for each blend, and I doubt blenders want to duplicate costs and effort that way. See what I mean?

    I get what you're saying - They'll have to reveal that to the FDA - it just doesn't mean that this information would be available to consumers.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,541

    online

    Login to Send PM

    They are regulations and so will morph, especially when the courts begin their input and the politicians enter the discussion.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. perdurabo

    perdurabo

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Jun 2015
    Posts: 2,775

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Exactly Warren.

    This is turning out hilariously idiotic. Big Government crowd, is looking at one another"Did we just fuck ourselves, I just want to smoke a pipe! Go take some old redneck's gun and leave me alone." Don't work like that now, does it?

    It's not my position nor want to help another man. It's his responsibility to help himself, as where he can learn to dig down deep enough to save himself. -I. Kidd
    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. captpat

    captpat

    Member
    Joined: Dec 2014
    Posts: 267

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    [quote]Trade Secret information won't be exposed - only the FDA will be privy to the % of components and flavoring.[quote]

    They said that about personal information gathered for security investigations that was held by OPM

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. User has not uploaded an avatar

    bigpond

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 2,050

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    pipe, is there a good chance many of these blends could go the way of the dodod?

    It's hard to say without knowing the application fee, which as far as I'm aware, has not yet been made public. Depending on the fee and the length of the application process we may see blenders reduce or eliminate seasonal and limited release blends, (tobacco of the month, c&d's small lots, new recipes for christmas blends).

    I believe Harris asked about Capstan, St Bruno and DSK specifically in another thread. All three are produced outside the US and only domestic sale will be impacted. Even if they are pulled from the US market they will be available abroad.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. tobaccojoe

    tobaccojoe

    Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 224

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    A few newspapers and journals have talked about application fees and they are astonomically imposing and restrictive in nature:

    But e-cig companies will also incur great costs in both time and expense in complying, if they're even able to do so. The FDA itself admits it could take as many as 5,000 hours to complete the necessary paperwork and cost "only" several hundred thousand dollars per product. Industry estimates, however, run orders of magnitude higher, between $3 million and $20 million per product. Plus applications have to be submitted for everything a manufacturer wants to do. New product design? Submit an application. Make a health claim? Submit an application. Register with the agency? Application. Introduce ingredients? Application.

    It's obvious the only e-cig companies that will be able to afford such time-consuming and costly processes, even at the decidedly lowball figures offered by the FDA, are the established players in the industry: the tobacco giants that have their own e-cig and vapor products on the market. The many thousands of smaller players that currently populate the market will find those costs impossible to pay. Instead they'll be driven from the market by the ruinous costs. If they're lucky they may be bought up by Altria or Reynolds, which will further solidify Big Tobacco's dominance.

    Source: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/05/20/the-fdas-electronic-cigarette-rules-are-here-and-t.aspx

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. iamn8

    Nate

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2014
    Posts: 4,323

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    With this VAST new revenue stream, just think of all the wonderful work the FDA will be able to do! They'll be able to branch out further and make our lives far better and healthier than we can possibly imagine!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. tobaccojoe

    tobaccojoe

    Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 224

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Here is the most simple page ("simple") from the FDA regarding Pipes and Pipe Tobacco specifically:

    http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/ProductsIngredientsComponents/ucm482580.htm#references

    Honestly, I am bummed that 1/3rd of the tins will need those ridiculous health warning stickers. Talk about ruining art! I'm not thrilled about losing some of my favorite smokes from post-2007, as will surely happen (if everything goes through), but I'll be even more upset if prices double. This would effectively price me out of the pipe tobacco hobby I love so much.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. tobaccojoe

    tobaccojoe

    Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 224

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Nate: Ridiculous, right!? Funny, I've never seen a sticker of an obese person on a Big Mac box or a drunk driving victim on any alcohol bottles. Curious, no?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. iamn8

    Nate

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2014
    Posts: 4,323

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Good point Joe! I'll add that the next time I drop something into the FDA's "suggestion box". One can only hope the FDA begins to regulate take-out food! There's a never ending list of choices we each make on a daily basis which we obviously can't be trusted with. Things like "taking the scenic route" is responsible for excess car exhaust and with GPS pointing the most direct route, scenic routes should fall under EPA purview and should be taxed. Between the EPA and the FDA our lives will be made so much efficient and healthy! Thank god for governmental agencies and the taxes which drive them!!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. tobaccojoe

    tobaccojoe

    Member
    Joined: May 2016
    Posts: 224

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The squeaky wheels seem to always get the grease and the good people who just want to be left alone bear the brunt of it.

    -Joe

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. brian64

    brian64

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 5,193

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    A few newspapers and journals have talked about application fees and they are astonomically imposing and restrictive in nature:

    But e-cig companies will also incur great costs in both time and expense in complying, if they're even able to do so. The FDA itself admits it could take as many as 5,000 hours to complete the necessary paperwork and cost "only" several hundred thousand dollars per product. Industry estimates, however, run orders of magnitude higher, between $3 million and $20 million per product. Plus applications have to be submitted for everything a manufacturer wants to do. New product design? Submit an application. Make a health claim? Submit an application. Register with the agency? Application. Introduce ingredients? Application.
    It's obvious the only e-cig companies that will be able to afford such time-consuming and costly processes, even at the decidedly lowball figures offered by the FDA, are the established players in the industry: the tobacco giants that have their own e-cig and vapor products on the market. The many thousands of smaller players that currently populate the market will find those costs impossible to pay. Instead they'll be driven from the market by the ruinous costs. If they're lucky they may be bought up by Altria or Reynolds, which will further solidify Big Tobacco's dominance.

    Source: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/05/20/the-fdas-electronic-cigarette-rules-are-here-and-t.aspx

    Monopoly Capitalism in action. It's so ironic that many people support powerful government regulatory agencies because they think it's preventing the big corporations from having too much power. The reality is almost always exactly the opposite. The monstrosities that are the largest corporations can only exist through the power of government enforced monopolies.

    "Socialism" is a code word for corporate fascism, where the only thing in between the super wealthy and the super poor is the police state. And the Owners sit back and laugh their asses off at the peasants who never figure this out and keep demanding more government power.

    Here's a news flash: there really is no government. Hiding behind what we call government are the banks and the largest corporations.

    “Bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.” – George Carlin
    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. mso489

    mso489

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 25,933

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    If enacted as they stand, these regulations will pretty well eliminate new blends as commercially viable products. Pipe smokers can maintain some novelty and variation by using blending leaf and mixing blends, but tobacco sales will be curtailed by lack of new products. The pipe hobby/interest may fade by being static. But this could take a long, long time, too, like a generation. A few adjustments could make it less onerous. It's difficult to see how tobacco blending could continue to thrive.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,541

    online

    Login to Send PM

    We need to look at the possible positives of these regulations. No longer will pipe smokers need to read reviews or part with hard earned moneys just to sample the myriad of new blends. New smokers will have an easier time selecting blends, no more wandering into a tobacconist or spending hours reading on-line catalogs, just pick from the ten or so blends available and learn to like them. No more opening jars, smelling the tobacco or wasting time with a test bowl. The older established blends will have less competition.

    Blenders will no longer need to tax their brains and invest time in developing new blends. No longer will some poor soul need to rack the brain trying to come up with a catchy new name. Tobacco retailers will be able to pare inventories and possibly reduce a bit of overhead costs.

    The leisure class, also known as the unemployed, will grow as blenders retire to enjoy the moneys they've salted away, tobacconists can retire to their yachts and country estates.

    I see a lot of upside with these pending regulations.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. 4noggins

    4noggins

    Member
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 244

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Warren,

    And in two years I'll be living on my 46' Outbound (Sailboat) in St. Croix sporting dreads and a gold tooth!!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. jefff

    jefff

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 1,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Sighsssss I wish I had enough hair left for dreads.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 13,334

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    We need to look at the possible positives of these regulations. No longer will pipe smokers need to read reviews or part with hard earned moneys just to sample the myriad of new blends. New smokers will have an easier time selecting blends, no more wandering into a tobacconist or spending hours reading on-line catalogs, just pick from the ten or so blends available and learn to like them. No more opening jars, smelling the tobacco or wasting time with a test bowl. The older established blends will have less competition.

    In other words, Nirvana! Now, will there be attractive young ladies waiting to meet our every desire as well?? (The hell with virgins, too much trouble to educate).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. brian64

    brian64

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 5,193

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Optimists are so annoying.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

    Posted 3 years ago #

Reply

You must log in to post.

 

 

    Back To Top  | Back to Forum Home Page

   Members Online Now
   sumusfumus, georged, jaytex969, agnosticpipe, cshubhra, cortezattic, paulfg, pitchfork, malicev, railman, jerrynyc, catyrpelius, jiminks, olkofri, warren