Pipe Doesn't Match the Description

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neverbend

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 20, 2014
230
5
This listing is a good object lesson for (new) smokers who are considering buying pipes (in this case, eBay). I'm not trying to scare you off of doing so, just pointing out some things to look for. The seller makes claims that don't match the pipe.
Ser Jacopo smooth Dublin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SER-JACOPO-FATTA-A-MANO-STRAIGHT-STEM-BRIAR-SMOKING-PIPE-ITALY-/251584768341?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
Things to notice:

1 - Very dark nomenclature

2 - Top of the bowl picture

3 - Shank / tenon joint (where the stem meets the bowl)

4 - Stem logo. Red coral dot (pipes made from late 1984 to 1997)

5 - Matte finish

6 - L in circle nomenclature
The seller replied:

Bought this pipe 4 or 5 years ago...That is why the pipe is still in such excellent condition. I'd estimate it wasn't smoked more that 10 or 12 times. I was the original and only owner.
#1

Very dark nomenclature, as in this pipe, indicates that the pipe was stained after the pipe was marked. Pipes are stamped after they're stained precisely to avoid this.
#2

In the picture looking down into the bowl you can see that the left side of the pipe isn't symmetrical with the right and it's shape is slightly irregular. This is inconsistent for most makers, especially top makers like Ser Jacopo but it is consistent with an attempt to reshape the bowl (sanding).
#3

The shank slopes slightly as it meets the stem. This is consistent with a replacement stem. The stem looks as though it may be original (logo and shaping of the button - end of the stem). If it's not a replacement stem then the shank was sanded.
Points #1 to #3 indicate that this pipe was sanded and then restained. You'd look for the same indications in pipes of any manufacture. Points #4-#6 are brand specific to Ser Jacopo.
#4

The seller claims that the pipe was purchased sometime after 2008 but by stem logo it was made at least 11 years before and by style possibly 10 years earlier than that (Jacopo made several of this shape in the mid 1980s). It's a slight possibility that this pipe was NOS (New Old Stock) and it was purchased unsmoked 20 years after it was made.
#5

Ser Jacopo didn't make a matte finished smooth but it's possible that the picture makes it look that way.
#6

Ser Jacopo used L1, L2 and earlier L3 as nomenclature for their smooth pipes, not an L in a circle.
Conclusion:

This pipe has a lot of red flags. I believe that it was sanded and slightly reshaped (bowl), marked with the L in a circle and then stained. The stain infiltrated the existing nomenclature and made it dark.
The pipe still has quality but you should understand what you're buying or bidding on and if this seller is indeed the original owner then his story and description don't match the pipe.
Hope that this helps.

 
Mar 31, 2014
385
1
I'm still pretty new to pipes, so your "sherlock" eye is greatly appreciated :puffpipe: Though, I can't help but feel that some of the older gents might have some contrary remarks...

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
Damn man,

this is a great case study.
Thanks for taking the time, I think it will be helpful.
This is what I needed when I first ventured off in the eBay waters,

and boy did I end up with some doozies LOL
The format you chose is most excellent also,

very well done!

:puffpipe:

 

dottiewarden

Lifer
Mar 25, 2014
3,053
57
Toronto
Great tip neverbend. When the PAD takes over maybe we can get a little sloppy when it comes to the estates. This is a good reminder to take the time to observe the details. Thanks again!

 

antbauers

Part of the Furniture Now
Jul 12, 2013
675
0
Wow, now I know who to ask when I'm checking out estates! Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

pipestud

Lifer
Dec 6, 2012
2,010
1,750
Robinson, TX.
Well heck, neverbend, I hate to be a party pooper, but will respectfully disagree with your assessment of this Ser Jacopo pipe. I have had countless older pieces like this run through my eBay consignment sales and this pipe has a lot of the features I've seen many times with the brand, including the reddish less than shiny stain and the circled L grade, which is indeed a part of the Ser Jacopo grade chart that you can find easily by doing a simple Google search. Here's my take for whatever it's worth (probably not much) but here goes -
#1- For whatever reason, Ser Jacopo had dark nomenclature on many of its older pieces and the nomenclature on this one looks exactly like many I've seen.
#2 - All I can say is that the pipe does not appear to have had the bowl topped or reshaped. The inner rim gives a pretty good indication by looking at the photo that some areas are actually darkened but the stain is consistent with the rest of the pipe and sure doesn't look to me like its been reshaped.
#3 - I blew up a couple of the photos showing the joint connection and see absolutely no signs of sanding. The seller may not have fitted the connection tightly when taking the photos, but again, the stain is consistent and not darker or lighter than the rest of the pipe. And the stem (if not the original), was the absolute spitting image of a Ser Jacopo stem from the logo to the button. And the end of both the shank and the stem at the joint sure appear to be the same size to me. I'm absolutely just not seeing what you are.
#4 - I've sold many NOS Ser Jacopo pipes from the Coral Dot logo era in recent years. And a reminder that after the news was out in the early 2000's that Ser Jacopo was using fills on its pipes, the company actually went back to Coral Dot logos for its European market pipes and used only the silver J logo for its US Imported pipes and guaranteed those to be fill free (the Europeans are not nearly as worried about fills as USA collectors). Ser Jacopo has since changed again and I believe (not 100% positive about this) that only the Modica and La Fuma lines still bear the Coral Dot.
#5 - Again, I can only go by personal experience, but I have sold many of the old and new Ser Jacopo pipes over the years with a less than shiny finish exactly like the one in the auction photos. The L is indeed one of the grades Ser Jacopo uses for its pipes and denotes a pipe with a smooth, reddish finish such as the one in the auction. I quickly found a link for you to support that - http://www.pipedia.org/wiki/Ser_Jacopo
#6 - With respect, you are sure wrong about a simple "L" in a circle not being a Ser Jacopo grade. See the link I provided above or do a Google search and you'll find many such references to the Ser Jacopo grading system.
Again, just a different take than yours and no disrespect intended.
Pipestud

 
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pipesinperu

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 21, 2014
189
9
Thanks to all of our more experienced members for taking the time to post on this thread (neverbend, pipestud, briarblues)! The original post was great to get a feel of what to look for in estates. The responses have been very informative, too. Great stuff!

 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
When ever I see a pipe being sold by a guy who obviously sells pipes rarely if ever, I take any descriptions he writes with a large grain of salt. Every pipe I ever bought on ebay was from a seller who deals in pipes only. I never re furbish pipes and only buy pipes in pristine condition so I stay away from sellers like this. Now for the guys who do refurbish, some of the best deals out there are from people who know nothing about what they are selling so you do have to know what you are doing.
Great posts guys and very informative. If someone can buy that pipe for 79.00 and wants to clean it up, it should be a pretty good smoker and a pretty good deal.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
Life is full of frustrations. I just can't put myself through the ebay pipe buying meat grinder. You can

land great deals, but is it the pipe you want or the euphoria of "winning" the auction, and what you get

often seems to be something other than what you pictured? I'll spend a little more and get substantially

what I want, and consider the difference worth it, for my time and my morale. If you shop rigorously,

you can often get good prices. Online sites offer discounts from time to time that help whittle down

your PAD expenditure. Buy pipes from Forums members; they know pipes and will deliver as described,

I think.

 

neverbend

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 20, 2014
230
5
Pipestud and Briarblues, thanks for your quality responses and I’d classify our comments as optimistic, cautious and doubtful and that’s a fair mental process that any buyer of pipes (anything?) should have especially when the product can’t be inspected personally.
Pictures can be misleading and I framed my comments accordingly but I chose this pipe as an illustration because of the disparity between the description and seller’s note to me and the (reasonably) clear photos. The condition of the pipe is at odds with the pictures shown and the evidence is always in the pipe.
Nomenclature and logos can be dynamic. Pipestud makes a good point about different stamps and logos used for specific markets. I take your word that you’ve seen other pipes marked with an L in a circle but there’s an otherwise beautiful Ser Jacopo smooth billiard currently for sale (eBay) with a ‘J’ logo that is filled (top inside of the bowl) that the seller responsibly shows. This is why nomenclature can be unreliable.
An old collector trick is to dab stain on the nomenclature when it’s become too faint. If one were to look at the offerings on eBay I doubt that there are many (if any) Jacopo’s that have darkened stain in their nomenclature other than this pipe. Why was this pipe stained? That question is what led me to question the other points that I raised.
I apologize if my comments about the shaping of this pipe weren’t specific enough. Looking at the top of the bowl, the walls of the right side are clearly thicker than the left. Same picture, directly over the shank (inside of the bowl) you can see the ‘edge’ where the reshaping starts. It’s possible that this was done at the factory to ‘run a flaw’ but that’s inconsistent with the body of Jacopo’s work.
The shank slopes slightly to the stem, (first two pictures) that’s usually an indication of replacement bits but I agree that this appears to be an original stem. Pipe makers refrain from trimming any more wood than necessary from the shank because it weakens the joint that’s already susceptible to breaking. Where there’s smoke...
Briarblues, the tiny dots were originally real coral but they proved a problem because they sometimes popped out and they were changed (perhaps a few times) to synthetics that could vary a bit in hue and perhaps size.
When nomenclature darkens with wear it’s not uniform like this (all over the pipe) and I’ve never seen it on a Jacopo (has to do with the crispness of their stamps that they were manic about).
Your point about the the possible use of water or alcohol (or other substance) is excellent and possibly an answer to some of the questions raised. Alcohol can cause a small amount of ‘bleed’ and perhaps it was applied liberally (soaked). I hadn’t raised a couple of esoteric points about what seems to be a lighter shade on the shank and the opacity of the shank wood but alcohol could cause this and the matte appearance.
My intent wasn’t to besmirch online sellers, rather to point out a pipe that wasn’t as described. Whether the seller is ignorant or not you need to do your due diligence and as Briarblues makes clear, ask questions until you’re sure and if you’re not then wait for another pipe.

 
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