Patriotism: What Would We Do

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

Watch for Updates Twice a Week

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Drucquers Banner

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Status
Not open for further replies.

shaintiques

Lifer
Jul 13, 2011
3,615
227
Georgia
This article was written by a missionary friend of mine in Ukraine. I was a missionary there back in 1998-2003. Ukraine is actually the first place I ever smoked a pipe and where I bought my first two pipes. I will post some pics of them later. My friend is a very poignant writer and he speaks of a place and a people that I love, but for most people it is just a blip on the news. Ukrainians are very much like Americans, they want a country of their own, they want freedom and they want success. They want to live and laugh and love, but Russia is making that very hard. Anyway I will let you read it and ask that you lift a bowl to the true patriots of Ukraine, because if someone came in and tried to do this to us we would kick their ass. We have the 2nd amendment however and they do not.
A month ago, the Pastor with whom I work preached a sermon on patriotism. He reminded us that Patriotism at its best is simply a love for one's own country and the people in it. It serves fellow citizens, it cares about the land in its borders, and it builds institutions to establish a brighter future.
Whatever we call it, public spirit, loyalty to your homeland, or nationalism, the idea is that a love for your people translates into a concern and service to one's fellow countrymen. This is the foundational element in a healthy country. The patriot's pride picks up litter, volunteers at food banks, and defends his land from aggression.
This is why we can't call Ukraine's previous president a patriot. Instead of building up he tore down (using parkland for pet building projects); instead of saving the country's money he spent it (personally); and instead of speaking out for the integrity of his country's borders, he betrayed Crimea to Russia (In fact now he's not even living in Ukraine).
This question of patriotism is an especially difficult one in the Eastern part of the country. In the two easternmost regions, Donetsk and Lugansk, there is a very vocal minority (who happen to be very well armed and driving military vehicles) who call themselves separatists. However, it's not entirely clear what they want to separate themselves from or why. These people are systematically destroying the fabric of society in these regions. This is a mishmash of people, most of whom are not Ukrainian citizens (a very important fact), who are destabilizing and destroying, just the opposite of what a patriot does. They do this not out of love for order, but a desire for disorder, which serves the larger ends of some nefarious groups and one nefarious country. Everywhere they are, there is lawlessness (car dealerships looted), disorder (whole cities have simply run out of food), and tragically, death (including a lack of discrimination between shooting regular citizens and Ukrainian soldiers).
What do Ukrainian patriots do?. They employ the fight or flight response. Those who chose to fight back against this chaos are paying heavily for it. Now even the simple gesture of hanging your countries flag on your car, which in most countries is citizenship 101, will mean the loss of your car to fire or vandalism, and if you wear the blue and white colors of the flag on your person, you are sure to be beaten or even kidnapped. A more vocal response carries with it the risk to life and limb.
Other Eastern Ukrainians have chosen the flight response. Some from Crimea have chosen to move out to friends and relatives on mainland Ukraine (notably it is now a hate crime to fly the Ukrainian flag in Crimea, punishable by prison time), and many from the Eastern parts of Ukraine are following their example and leaving for all points West, including Kyiv. For many this flight holds a high price, of property, friends, and family, but they feel it is worth it. They cannot simply stand by and watch their country crumble.
Those of us living in Western Ukraine feel helpless to stop the bleeding. We watched the Odessa tragedy on May 2nd where 38 died. We watched the separatist referendum last weekend, which in the end was nothing more than some card tables set up on street corners manned by masked guys with guns (and for those who couldn’t make it to Ukraine, “polling stations” were set up in Moscow and large numbers voted absentee). We are also watching the Ukrainian army stage offensives, trying carefully to delineate between separatist and citizen, in an attempt to take back cities that have been lost. Everywhere else in Ukraine, patriots watch, pray, and go about loving their country and land as best they can in this chaos.

 

necron99

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 4, 2014
268
0
Sounds like its time for citizens to start killing the separatists, who are ruining their lives. If you make it too dangerous to operate then they will stop.

 

yaddy306

Lifer
Aug 7, 2013
1,372
504
Regina, Canada
While anyone would agree that the current political situation in Ukraine is chaos, I'm not sure that the situation is as simple as this:

In the two easternmost regions, Donetsk and Lugansk, there is a very vocal minority who call themselves separatists. However, it's not entirely clear what they want to separate themselves from or why. These people are systematically destroying the fabric of society in these regions. This is a mishmash of people, most of whom are not Ukrainian citizens (a very important fact), who are destabilizing and destroying, just the opposite of what a patriot does. They do this not out of love for order, but a desire for disorder, which serves the larger ends of some nefarious groups and one nefarious country.
The "separatists" in the Donbass region probably feel that they are also "patriots", for their region which they feel should be separate from the Western Ukraine. Far from being a "mishmash of people", the people of the Donbass are pretty united in culture and political belief. See the article "Why Donbass Votes for Yanukovich".
Don't get me wrong: I think Ukraine should remain a united country, and that Russia has been meddling in the lives of Ukrainians for over a century. But things are not as black and white as your missionary friend might lead us to believe.

 

anglesey

Can't Leave
Jan 15, 2014
383
2
I imagine the Crimeans feel more patriotic fervor towards Russia than Ukraine. I would also not call the seperatists terrorists, nefarious or unpatriotic. They are patriotic for their own cause. If I was in an area that felt more akin to one country than it's own, and that country invaded, I would fight tooth and nail for it.
Ukraine should not remain a united country, the Crimea, at least, should pass to Russia. Russia has the strength to take it, and nobody will oppose them. Such as it always was, and always will be.

 

Perique

Lifer
Sep 20, 2011
4,098
3,884
www.tobaccoreviews.com
While I realize politics is not a desired subject for this board, it's here so I'll comment: Calling Ukrainian separatists "terrorists" is to fall into the absolute worst of modern U.S. propaganda. Ukraine is being used in a broader economic and geopolitical conflict.
We need to very, very careful about how easily we throw that label around, lest it one day expand to cover us.

 

Strike Anywhere

Can't Leave
Nov 9, 2011
374
99
Central United States
I imagine the Crimeans feel more patriotic fervor towards Russia than Ukraine. I would also not call the seperatists terrorists, nefarious or unpatriotic. They are patriotic for their own cause. If I was in an area that felt more akin to one country than it's own, and that country invaded, I would fight tooth and nail for it.
Ukraine should not remain a united country, the Crimea, at least, should pass to Russia. Russia has the strength to take it, and nobody will oppose them. Such as it always was, and always will be.
This is good to know. So should we go ahead and write-off most of Texas, Southern California, and other parts of the Southwest to Mexico? It could save a lot of bloodshed. I'm sure most of those people feel "more patriotic fervor" towards Mexico than the United States -- fairly obvious by the fact that they send most of the money they earn back to Mexico. Granted, Mexico is no Russia and the United States is not Crimea, but following your logic, if Mexico's military was stronger and the United States' was weaker, Mexico should have every right to take it.

 

shaintiques

Lifer
Jul 13, 2011
3,615
227
Georgia
Perhaps this was a bad choice to post on as I can see this thread getting out of hand. I'll leave it to the mods discretion to let it run or close.

 

peter70

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 24, 2013
175
1
I am sorry for the people there, but for Russia it is a completely understandable, strategic move. They cannot allow Western influence in form of Eu, NATO, etc. to establish in front of their doorstep. What would the USA do, if the same happened in their vicinity, let's say Cuba? Wait...

 

drwatson

Lifer
Aug 3, 2010
1,721
5
toledo
I hope this doesn't get closed, as long as kept civil, this is what makes this interesting.
Now correct me if I am wrong on any points, as I have not followed as close as I should. But didn't this all start because the Ukraine is in financial ruin and the ex-president basically had two choices, lean closer to Russia (stable) or the EU (a financial nightmare). The choice he made was not liked by a large portion of the people, except in Crimea where the voted to break away and side with Russia. So Russia send in troops to protect what the Crimean people want. Now I know this was a very grade school explanation (and hoping I'm not that far off) If Maine took a vote and wanted to go with Canada, would we really start a war over it? Good question.

 

frankenstein

Might Stick Around
Dec 7, 2013
59
0
The new regim in Ukraine isn't very patriotic either. It shipped away their collected gold reserve the instant they got into office.
I'm not taking sides here, just saying there's two sides to every coin.

 

andrew

Lifer
Feb 13, 2013
3,043
402
Good essay but I vote to close the thread. I'm not even going to comment on my thoughts for fear of causing massive internet butthurt. Even if it stays civil, which it won't, there's several forums discussing politics. We don't discuss politics or religion here.

 

condorlover1

Lifer
Dec 22, 2013
8,051
27,177
New York
I agree with that 100%. Lets stick to tobacco and pipes and leave messing up the world to politicians who are far better at it then we will ever be.

 

andrew

Lifer
Feb 13, 2013
3,043
402
But am I saying close the thread out of goodwill or to silence political dissendent? :rofl:

 

condorlover1

Lifer
Dec 22, 2013
8,051
27,177
New York
I have always wondered about Putin. All that waxed chest stuff surrounded by young men. I mean its really not on is it? I mean Ernst Rohm at least had the decency to have away parties by the lake for goodness sake. But then again there are many in our own society in the thrall of dangerous belief systems.

 

shaintiques

Lifer
Jul 13, 2011
3,615
227
Georgia
I started the thread more to discuss patriotism than the geopolitical situation, but I should have known better. I try to avoid politics but Ukraine is very near and ear to me having many friends and a Goddaughter living there. Putin is a megalomaniac. He always has been. He has just gotten bolder and all of the issues in the east of Ukraine,the destabilization occurring is Moscow backed. Anyway let's move on to pipes and tobacco. Smoke a bowl for the brave souls fighting there and elsewhere for freedom from tyranny.

 

andrew

Lifer
Feb 13, 2013
3,043
402
I kind of see the destabilization as the west interfering in European politics. I think there is a very vocal minority that the western media is propping up. I take everything I read in the western media with a grain of salt. Personally I would rather become cozier with Russia than go with NATO. I basically see it as the west installing a puppet government and taking away the legitimate one that was voted in by the people, it's called a silent majority for a reason. I'm quite a fan of Putin since he was first elected president. I view the USA as a warmongering monster who needs to be kept in check, so I raise my pipe to a united strong Russia. Again I think this thread should be closed.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.