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Lovat or Leave It: The Lovat Defined

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mso489

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,459
Courtesy of gqtobacco, here's a clear definition of a Lovat shape tobacco pipe:
Lovat

The Lovat is another member of the Billiard family with the overall proportions being much the same, and is closely tied with the Liverpool shape. The Lovat has a slightly longer shank than the Billiard and uses a small Saddle mouthpiece
Why do I mention it? Because I have recently encountered about a half dozen pipes of different shapes, from apples to pots,

blithely described as Lovats. I think the pipe retailers have hired a lot of young people who do not learn the shapes and

wing it when describing pipes. Whole sites mostly omit naming shapes at all, which is a shame because often the photography

doesn't show a pipe all that well, whether it's a panel, for example, or nuances between an egg and an acorn. As devoted pipe

enthusiasts, let's help maintain sense of nomenclature so we all know what we're talking about (to the degree possible).

 
jarit

jarit

Can't Leave
Jul 2, 2013
333
4
I agree, lovat shape clearly has a variable meaning for people.
Some call any saddle stem billiard a lovat. To me, a lovat has to have clearly longer shank than the bowl's height is. And when the shank reaches the canadian shape proportions and has a short saddle stem it's not a lovat, nor a liverpool (which has a short tapered stem), but a lumberman. Although, many believe that a lumberman should always have an oval stem. Bill Burney's shape chart puts the lovat shape in the canadian family, but I see it a shape of its own between billiards and canadians.
Another difficult shape for me is the dublin. Many smokers and pipemongers will call any freehand pipe with somewhat flared conical bowl a dublin -- I don't.

 
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judcole

judcole

Lifer
Sep 14, 2011
7,184
33,509
Detroit
Yeah, the lovat is a member of the "Canadian" family. I've got an old IRC lovat; nothing fancy, but a good solid smoker. I'm going to be firing it up later with some McC 2014 Christmas Cheer.

Here's the Pipedia discourse on the subject.

Pipedia Lovat

 
johnnyreb

johnnyreb

Lifer
Aug 21, 2014
1,961
612
Good post MSO and I agree. I think where the confusion comes in at is when one of the other shapes you mentioned also happens to have a saddle bit. Because it has a (long) saddle bit it gets called a Lovat incorrectly. There is also much confusion between the Lovat and the Canadian, and what makes a Canadian a Lumberman.
And of course, the bulldog vs the Rhodesian.

 
mso489

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,459
I think the Pipedia Lovat emphasizes putting the Lovat in the Canadian family, but I think the classic Lovat,

in my mind (???) has only a slightly longer shank than a regular billiard and the saddle stem. But I know

the whole shape discussion is full of variation and opinions, and justly so. We are talking about visual arts

and design and the categories are highly malleable. I'll accept that the Pipedia Lovat is certainly a Lovat.

Some "Lovats" online are clearly not -- don't have the billiard bowl, don't have the saddle stem. There's

nothing Lovat about them. I've seen clear billiards called Dublins, apples called authors, and so on. Some

clarity is required or no use in naming shapes at all. Apparently some of the online retailers have given up

and just don't name most pipe shapes. That makes the expertise of their staff suspect to a degree.

It looks like they just don't know, and maybe they don't care. It suggests that they are selling only to

newcomers and don't want the experienced pipe smoker trade, if they don't speak the language.

 
johnnyreb

johnnyreb

Lifer
Aug 21, 2014
1,961
612
"And when the shank reaches the canadian shape proportions and has a short saddle stem it's not a lovat, nor a liverpool (which has a short tapered stem), but a lumberman. Although, many believe that a lumberman should always have an oval stem."
Jarit, I personally love all 3 shapes but the Lumberman is probably my favorite. But for me the Lumberman has to have the general proportions of the Canadian, must have the oval shank with the saddle bit, and the saddle bit being less than half the length of the Stummel. Some of these other shapes that get confused in with the Lovat, the Canadian & the Lumberman have too short of a shank, and the saddle bit is just as long as the shank.

 
cosmicfolklore

cosmicfolklore

Lifer
Aug 9, 2013
33,983
75,703
Between the Heart of Alabama and Hot Springs NC
And, you'd think that the world would bow down to our round shank verse diamond shank definitions for a rhodesian verses a bulldog, but no... Those Europeaners just don't like us defining things for them, ha ha.

Can a lovat have a diamond shank as long as the rest of it is perfectly lovat-like? Can it have a Dublin shaped bowl? I think Greg Pease would be the first one to say that we have to be relaxed about these titles of categories. In reading about the pipe contests he officiates for Pipes and Tobaccos, he tends to defend a more relaxed definition of these shape names. Besides, I bet you can find some alternative names for pipes out there, and who do we use as a definitive? Do we force the Europeans and Chinese to use our definitions? And, what does it matter, as long as there is a picture included? :wink:

 
mso489

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,459
cosmic, I don't mind that the shape names can get squishy related to particular pipes. Many pipes are

hybrid between two or more defined shapes. But it's not bad to have some fairly set, maybe stogy,

shape definitions so we start with something in our heads (when we don't have multiple pictures). Photos

are good to great, but sometimes one or even two pictures don't capture all the shape. A glare off the

side of a bowl can make many pipes look like panels, that aren't. Words are one tool, so it helps to make

an effort to clarify and define the terms, realizing, as you say, many or most pipes won't fall into set

categories. When you say straight billiards, it goes a long way to describe a lot of pipes accurately, though

a creative designer could make this look like a large fib.

 
peckinpahhombre

peckinpahhombre

Lifer
Dec 24, 2012
7,195
456
This can be confusing. This is a saddle billiard, not a Lovat, right?

And how is Lovat pronounced?
I have always pronounced it "Luv IT"
Brian Levine on a recent episode of the PM radio show pronounced it "Lu VAWT"
I assume I have been mispronouncing it all this time?

 
johnnyreb

johnnyreb

Lifer
Aug 21, 2014
1,961
612
My take is that Troutface's Hansen is a Lovat because of the straight billiard bowl, the shank is longer in length than the bowl is tall, and because the saddle bit is shorter in length than the shank. On the other hand, Peck's is not a Lovat because the bowl is not a true billiard shape (more of a brandy shape?), the shank is not longer than the bowl is tall, and the saddle bit is about equal in length (in some cases they can be even longer) to the shank. I agree with Voorhees that he is showing an example of a Lovat. YMMV.
On Troutface's second pipe I would call it an apple even though the shank is a little bigger/thicker than what I would like to see, but the bowl is taller and more rounded than what I would expect to see if it is an author.
I would like to read the assessments & opinions of others.

 
peckinpahhombre

peckinpahhombre

Lifer
Dec 24, 2012
7,195
456
I don't know about my pipe. What I can say is that Jess Chonowitsch thinks it's a saddle billiard.
Who am I to argue?

 
lochinvar

lochinvar

Lifer
Oct 22, 2013
1,687
1,634
It's "luv it" as in Lord Lovat, Chiefs of Clan Fraser of Lovat one of whom the shape was named after. It seems it was always a fairly popular shape in Scotland. I have several shop made (or at least sold when the shops were operating in Perth and Edinburgh) Rattray and John Cotton pipes from the early half of the century, and everyone is a Lovat.

 
dottiewarden

dottiewarden

Lifer
Mar 25, 2014
3,053
57
Toronto
There is also much confusion between the Lovat and the Canadian, and what makes a Canadian a Lumberman.
Click to expand...
I thought that the distinguishing characeristics were quite clear:
Canadian vs Lumberman - Same billiard bowl, same elongated oval shank:
short fish tail bit = Canadian

short saddle bit = Lumberman
Liverpool vs Lovat - Same billiard bowl, same elongated round shank:
short fish tail bit = Liverpool

short saddle bit = Lovat

 
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judcole

judcole

Lifer
Sep 14, 2011
7,184
33,509
Detroit
I'd say that's a saddle stem billiard,Peck. Bit and shank are about the same length,as opposed to the short bit of a lovat. I smoked one of each,yesterday - an IRC lovat loaded with Christmas Cheer 2014,and a Stanwell saddle stem billiard loaded with Larry's Blend. The proportions of the Stan are about the same as your Chonowitch.

 
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