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Ken Burns Vietnam War Documentary on PBS

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  1. mso489

    mso489

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    Scheduling often varies around the U.S., but on many PBS stations in the EDT zones, Ken Burns Vietnam War Documentary will premier tonight (Sept. 17, 2017) at 8 p.m., the first two hours of ten, i think it is. Check your own listings to be sure, if you are interested. Nothing on the Vietnam War will be universally or even generally acclaimed, because of the divisive nature of the war, not only in the U.S. but in both North and South Vietnam, as it turns out. One feature to recommend this series is that the film makers avoided the usual leadership figures and protest figures justifying their own behavior, and went instead to people who actually did the fighting on both sides, who had never been interviewed before, to try to stay with the factual events rather than the purported policy. Even if you agree with little or none of it, you will likely learn some new things and experience some surprises. One of the promotions for the series featured a tape of LBJ, before the major build-up, telling a senior advisor, who could hardly get a word in, that Vietnam looked like a military engagement without any benefit to the U.S. LBJ was stubborn and adamant on the subject. Self-contradictory.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. warren

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    Ken Burns' conclusions always seem to differ from mine. I have to remember that he's selling his product and needs the widest audiences possible. I can't comlain about that, just good old American ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit at work.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. tbradsim1

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    Not to be political, but Lady Bird was a major Stock holder in Brown,& Root, they did a lot of work there .Burns may put lipstick on the pig, but I saw up close and personal how it was. Sad,Sad,Sad!

    The Old Cajun
    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. snowyowl

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    he's selling his product and needs the widest audiences possible [...] just good old American ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit at work.

    Was it Kennedy or Johnson or Nixon who had that thought in their time?
    ---
    Vietnam "War": Been there, done that for 1.5 tours.
    On the other hand, I did win that lottery, so-drafted!?

    "If you see something... pipe up."
    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. davet

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    PVR is set to tecord, thanks for the heads-up

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. tschiraldi

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    His Civil War is on Netflix now.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    @Brad- LBJ and Lady Bird sure had lots of stock in Bell Helicopter, as well. I'm sure they didn't make any profit off of it during the war, though...

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. snowyowl

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    I'm sure they didn't make any profit off of it during the war

    Silly rabbit. Win or lose a war?!
    This has no bearing on profit or loss.
    Just like Sunday's NFL games... the bookmakers have no real interest in who wins or loses. Just a vested interest.
    No skin in the game.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    I figured selling thousands of Hueys to the Army might be some skin in the game, but I could be wrong.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. snowyowl

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    I figured selling thousands of Hueys to the Army might be some skin in the game, but I could be wrong.

    For your example: those choppers are bought and paid for upfront; not contingent on any outcome (or flag for that matter).
    ---
    Insert materials retailer name here:
    Is your conflict not going well?
    Is it a prolonged engagement?
    We're here for you... need more Hueys?

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    I didn't think it would be. No matter what, Bell stockholders made dividends when sales were booming.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. snowyowl

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    I didn't think it would be. No matter what, Bell stockholders made dividends when sales were booming.

    Well points!
    That is indeed: Presidential Logic, 2017.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. warren

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    Making money is as American as apple pie.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. ssjones

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    I'm recording it.

    Al

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. deathmetal

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    What an interesting war. I think Burns got cucked a few years ago and has preached the party line ever since. I liked Ladybird when I met her.

    "My own experience has been that the tools I need for my trade are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey." -- William Faulkner

    The Metal Mixtures
    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. dmcmtk

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    Predictably shallow in it's analysis. People have had 70 years to think about the history, yet the Burn's piece offers very little insight, or information beyond the simplistic, broad brush approach to the telling of the history. One and done...I must not be the target audience.

    Dave
    Duke Street Irregular
    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. mso489

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    I expected the first two one-hour episodes, but instead got a repetition of the first episode. I also thought it was odd that the local station offered a counseling line for anyone, vets I suppose, who had emotional turmoil viewing this. I was glad to see that McNamara and Bundy weren't given screen time, at least in the first episode. Some of the Vietnamese veterans on either side were interesting to hear from. The history on the French defeat in 'Nam was interesting, but familiar. I'm annoyed that neither my local station nor the PBS system makes clear the schedule of subsequent parts of the series. I seem to be "enjoying" this more than others, but it looks like I'll be lucky to see episode two, and so on. Since there was so much disparity on how the war was seen at the time, I suspect there will never be national consensus on a public narrative, but it's still interesting to see narratives constructed. As we sat in Danang Harbor, my shipmates lamented that Lady Bird was a big investor in SeaLand (I think it was) the big container ship corporation that brought supplies to the military. She was Lyndon's surrogate for radio stations and other major investments while he was in office.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. wyfbane

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    Oh no, that counselling line was almost certainly for anyone 15-30 who may have been triggered. Like when local high schools here had to have safe rooms for the emotional processing of the November elections...

    It is incredible to me the lack of mental toughness I see demonstrated in this country today. God help us if we ever have another real (1930's) depression.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. cranseiron

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    mso, our state PBS website has all ten segments available for viewing online. I suspect yours will also. Might be more convenient for you that way.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. dochudson

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    Burns preaches the party line?

    The first episode mostly background for the folks that aren't as smart as you guys.

    I'm sure the counseling line was for Vets...

    You never know.. A good friend (rvn vet) who had never had a problem went on a cruise he and the wife took one of those back county tours on one of the islands and he flipped out being in the jungle and seeing tin shacks that looked like what you would see in Vietnam.

    I Enjoy Aromatics
    I Enjoy Peterson Pipes
    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. jpmcwjr

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    Like when local high schools here had to have safe rooms for the emotional processing of the November elections...

    I can't tell if you're being amusing/ironic, or whether the above was an actual thing. If real, would you say where the hell that is/was?

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. tbradsim1

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    I am appalled at what I see now, in High School I helped my father recover bodies from Hurricane Audry, in S Asia at almost 18, wounded came back home, no arm around my shoulder saying how do you feel, was I special, NO, grew up on a farm, saw life and death issues, what has gone wrong, closer to home I have a Grandson who is incapable of anything that requires maturity. Are we to blame, probably , we've not given them the responabilty that was given to us growing up. I was driving a Big Combine from field to field at 12. It's a sad situation when I see High Schools tell their students there is a grief councilor for every little bump in the road. Am I old Fashioned, you bet I am and proud of it, and by the way, I smoke a Pipe, get over it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. ashdigger

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    John, yes, counseling rooms and comfort places were available all over Las Vegas and at UNLV. It was unbelievable.

    As for the show, I have an uncle who served and unfortunately, mentally, never came back. Maybe the counseling offer was for him and his fellow service members.

    Ubi Ignis Est?
    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. warren

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    I know more than one or two tough, old vets who are a bit more fragile mentally than you are. They got broken there and I feel for them. I won't tell you what I did for a when when suddenly confronted with red tail lights suddenly streaming across my vision at an overpass shortly after my return. A lot of us carry memories that, try as we might to keep them under control, surface at times. Some are war related and others police career related.

    When we damn a whole generation, we do not honor those who go willingly to serve. Much as my generation is remembered as "flower children" and anti-war. A lot of my generation went when called, some volunteered and many were broken in different ways. A lot of today's kids, the one's being maligned today as soft, will go in harm's way willingly and proudly. Let's not lump them all together.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. mso489

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    I think the PTSD and other counseling is a good idea. What put me off, was the two consoling fellows who put out the word on it. I'd have preferred just a brief, not dramatized statement, and the toll-free number writ large and held for a sufficient time to be written down. It didn't feel like they'd put themselves in the viewer's or vet's place. Not splitting hairs, but if you're going to do it, be effective. I worked as a vet counselor for about three and a half years between grad school and National Institutes of Health.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. mso489

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    Oops ... quick disclaimer: I was not a psychological counselor, not trained for that. The VA trained me as a benefits counselor at one of several training centers, this one at Carrolton Ga. on a campus. The trainers did a good job, packed us full of info, then sent us out, associated with the regional offices, to assist vets with education, medical, home loan, and other benefits. My main station was N.C. State University, though I made weekly/monthly stops at three or four other smaller schools. The single worst mistake made by the vets themselves was in not retaining their VA file number, trying to use the Social Security number instead. That gummed things up for up to a month. Changing schools often caused some delay. I'd pester the regional office, and usually we'd get guys paid, or get some kind of advance, fairly quickly. It's all different now -- different education package, etc. For a while, I felt we did a lot of good, kept guys in school, kept some marriages together. When the program was phased out, as the enrollment decreased after Vietnam, I bailed out to take a different, better job for me, instead of going into the regional office to push folders. Couldn't do that. Today, I believe the Social Sec numbers are used as the VA number, so that obstacle is gone. With VA, I joined the middle class; I got married, paid for the reception dinner, a diamond and a honeymoon, and moved into an apartment with a kitchen. Big life advances.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. woodsroad

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    A lot of today's kids, the one's being maligned today as soft, will go in harm's way willingly and proudly. Let's not lump them all together.

    I'm glad you said that, Warren. There's a lot of good kids out there who get overshadowed by the stereotypes of their generation. Conflation is one of the great demons in American society today.

    and by the way, I smoke a Pipe, get over it.

    Is there a safe room on this forum?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. wyfbane

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    Let's not lump them all together.

    I'm glad you said that, Warren.

    Warren, that is great to say. But it doesn't detract from the systematic cultural push to weaken our children that I am watching happen all around me as I progress through the process to become an educator.

    If you know whole giant swaths of kids who have escaped it, I am happy for you. And you ARE correct that many kids today are still slipping through this trend. But if you think I am wrong, you should come tour high schools and university campuses and see it first hand.

    And yes, your generation had flower power. From what I remember that never exceeded 10% of the population. I am not talking about hippies, but something much more insidious and farther reaching.

    Making it so our future generations cannot handle simple things like rejection, elections, and other key experiences in life will make them much more malleable in the future for political and social manipulation.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. tbradsim1

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    A study of our youth said 70% could not pass the physical to join the service.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. deathmetal

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    Vietnam was a war I would have been proud to fight in. Alas, born too late...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpVUMuLLqug

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. warren

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    Schools can do what they do because parents have abrogated their responsibilities. I simply cannot agree that things are as bad as the TV and other media tells us they are they are. It tickles me, in a sad way, that we buy into the media when they support our thinking and curse them when they don't. We remember the studies which shore up our beliefs and decry those which are in opposition.

    I spent time every evening with my child correcting much of what she was told in school. It took time and effort even back in the 70s and 80s. Many parents think all education and social training should be left to the schools. I realized, and many other parents, even today, understand that they must balance the schools with "home schooling" as it were. If critical thinking isn't taught at home, chances are your kid will simply accept whatever they are taught in school. So for many of these kids we see on TV having fun and acting out, don't blame the schools... the blame rests with the parents. Trust me, the schools are going to change, some are already, as caring and interested parents start to withhold tuition. Alumnae are already beginning to squeeze some of the more liberal schools. Harvard recently had their peepees soundly spanked and their alumnae are predominantly liberal..

    I remember reading that Mrs Clinton was going to win by a landslide. Then there were the studies, many years ago, which reported earth was the center of the universe. Don't forget those reports that man was not meant to fly or the Panama Canal was just a dream and couldn't be built. The pendulum swings, a much different police response in St. Louis than the earlier riots.

    I have friends whose kids or now grandchildren are reside on quiet campuses, attend classes and wear their ROTC uniforms proudly as they try to get laid.

    I don't tour schools and universities but, I do know the USMA, USNA and the other academies still turn out fighting men and women. I bet Texas A&M hasn't totally succumbed to "politically correctness." VMI?

    I'm sorry, I simply do not buy into the "Chicken Little" philosophy of life. While I'm not happy with many things that are occurring these days, the situation is certainly not as dire as some would like or fear.

    That 70%, if true, will have a loving, deeply caring, DI assigned to gently correct any deficiencies at "basic." The services become much less picky when there's a shortage of recruits and a war going on.

    No, the sky isn't falling, it's just a few acoustic tiles here and there. And, in life, there is always the collision of differing tenets and beliefs. That is what makes living interesting, challenging and yes, enriching.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    It is almost unbelievable, the amount of time I have had to spend deprogramming my kids from the social engineering they get indoctrinated with in the public schools. One is off to college, but the other is still in high school.

    The up side is that I get to spend time teaching them to research issues from as many sources and points of view as possible before reaching a conclusion, and the difference between documented facts and dogmatic opinions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. warren

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    I like your parenting style. You are a good and loving parent. I do believe it is harder to raise a well rounded, self-sufficient child in today's world, there are so many assets which can easily become negatives without responsible parents. Good on you!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. davet

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    The up side is that I get to spend time teaching them to research issues from as many sources and points of view as possible before reaching a conclusion, and the difference between documented facts and dogmatic opinions.

    My wife's niece came to live with us while in high school and this is exactly what we ended up doing. Very much brought us together.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    I appreciate that, Warren, I truly do. I have to admit, to their credit, I had good clay to work with! They're doing well; my son is in his sophomore year of college on an academic scholarship from the school and an ROTC scholarship from Uncle Sam. My daughter is in her junior year of high school with good grades while doing JROTC, music, and sports. I'm very proud of them for taking my rule to heart- work hard to help yourself and I'll help you as much as I can. Slack off and quit trying, you're on your own.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. warren

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    Hell! I'm a couple thousand miles away and I'm proud of them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. chilipalmer

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    A few thoughts:

    Ken Burns is a pinhead who is in the business of selling movies not presenting facts.

    Vietnam was a disaster from start to finish.

    I am proud of all my countrymen who served their nation, especially when that service has come when it was "unpopular" and I move through my life with the clear understanding that it is through their service and sacrifice that we remain free today.

    As a nation, our treatment of veterans has much room for improvement.

    Presenting the truth of history and the realities of the world to our children is a parent's duty and no parent should leave that vital education to the school system or the government.

    As Warren pointed out, things may not be as we would like them to be, but, the sky is a long way from falling. If you're not sure, take a long stare at Venezuela. That's what things look like when the sky is falling. Life in America is never dull but it is always rewarding.

    Cheers,

    Chili

    “Pipe: a primary masculine symbol with authoritarian overtones but also indicative of reliability and contentment.”
    -The Dictionary of Visual Language, 1980
    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. fnord

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    I have friends whose kids or now grandchildren are reside on quiet campuses, attend classes and wear their ROTC uniforms proudly as they try to get laid.

    ROTFL. So far the best comment of the month.

    Well done, Warren.

    Fnord

    It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says - like dumb - I'm smart and I want respect!
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    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. fnord

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    One more thing...

    I forgot to mention that I admire Ken Burns skills as a documentarian immensely. But I'll give the Vietnam outing a pass. He went down the rabbit hole several times with the Civil War piece but he still deserves praise for rekindling interest in one of our nation's saddest experiences.

    His documentary on baseball delighted me but I'm just a fan and not a student of the game. There could've been errors in his work but I'm not knowledgeable enough to weigh in. (I'll also say the same about his documentary on American jazz.)

    But, Vietnam? I followed the war daily as a child and into my high school years so I think I'll keep my own counsel.

    Fnord

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. johnnyreb

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    In several states now if not most (it may be federal) the law says if a HS student doesn't have enough credits to graduate with their class then they can continue attending to complete those credits until they reach their 20th birthday. In practice what happens with these "at risk kids" is the spring before they will reach their 20th birthday, if they haven't completed their credits they are given a GED & allowed to graduate as part of the "No child left behind" mantra.

    Rebels been rebels since I don't know when
    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. newbroom

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    At issue is the objective. War is not a popular activity, nor is it conducive to discussion.

    As proud Americans, we express a value for democracy and freedom. Gov't. of the people.

    It seems that in Viet Nam, the US was fighting against Communism, a threat to freedom and democracy. Capitalism seems to be an essential ingredient.

    Today, we are in business with Communist China. I guess Capitalism can work with Communism after all?

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Glad to see you back online, Mike!

    I'm not sure how much of it is Capitalism working with Communism, and how much of it is China's "Communist in the streets, Capitalist in the sheets" mentality. I don't believe they can quite figure themselves out; they like the fruits of Capitalism, but love the brutal dictatorial repression and undiluted power high that comes with Communism.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. balkisobrains

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    @ mso489 it looks like the PBS website will be showing all of the episodes. As of today, they have added some more and have the first four available to watch. I don't bother with cable or pay services of any kind beyond gig fiber internet. Nice to see that PBS is still actually accessible to the public.

    http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. mso489

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    From what I've heard from visitors to Vietnam, communist or not, they are not fond of the Chinese, so that monolithic vision was never going to gel. As near as I can discern, one reason the Vietnamese have warmed up, at least economically, to the U.S. despite the war is to balance the Chinese presence. Same thing about the great fear of closeness between Russia and China (which I shared as a teenager). Those nations like each other only somewhat and have many issues.

    There was great rage in the U.S. about "who lost China," meaning which Americans. Whereas, going back over the history, the U.S. had little to do with it, and only understood the victory of Mao over the Nationalists about 40 years later, and many are still learning about this.

    The second episode of the Burns documentary -- not so many conclusions, but plenty of grist, a lot to reconsider. It was not a binary struggle. Many players.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. wyfbane

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    Newsroom! Glad you are ok and back online.

    MSO, I thought John Wayne laid it out fairly well in The Green Berets...

    Warren, you are right. Parents are failing and are allowing schools to have undue influence. Wait, I think I said thst too. So we are arguing degrees then. And for that you DO need to spend time on campuses. I don't subscribe to TV models. I am on my campus and several more and I explore grad schools. I am in high schools all over my county, and I am networking with more and more teachers as I prepare to begin educating kids.

    I'm not sure there is a tv program that is showing how wide and deep this has invaded the system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. warren

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    Teaching one's children "critical thinking" when they are young, reinforcing such as they grow, making them self-reliant and self-confident, simply means they are prepared for college.

    A well prepared, critically thinking student can easily filter out the pap, keep his/her mouth shut and get a degree without being contaminated by whatever is the "social cause de jur." They've been taught how to play the college game, how discern what is important and what is frivolous. Those students interest me. The others? They will be the employees/subordinates of the prepared. Society needs them too. Fortunately, there will be plenty of them, as they are the "strong back" on which the societies are built.

    If you want to have an impact as an educator, elementary schools are the place to be, teaching critical thinking. Teach the mostly empty, wee minds to question everything they are told, how to weigh different perspectives, seek motives others positions, to make people defend their positions, and above all instill in them self-respect, to trust themselves and to avoid "bandwagons" as much as possible.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. pappymac

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    Thought I posted here earlier. After watching the first episode I have come to the realization that Burns' documentary is taking a biased view of history. He's seems to be painting a picture of Ho Chi Minh as a poor misunderstood freedom fighter who wanted the United States on his side while the US Government and CIA were tied to the French. I think Burns is using the same brush the media has long used in painting the picture of Che Guevara the want to portray.

    Vietnam was a bad war. The US would have been wiser to follow the recommendation of General Douglas MacArthur who said "Anyone who commits the American Army in the Asian mainland should have his head examined."

    I am glad we have a good admin and responsible moderators.

    Heave to you dark colored ship under sail! Prepare to be boarded!
    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. warren

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    As a rookie copper told me in the academy, "It wasn't a great war but, it was the only one we had." He was a Marine LRRP.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. woodsroad

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    Thread of the Year Award

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. warren

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    That's what makes history so damned entertaining. In my school days, the books were simply dates and events to be memorized for tests. Real histories are always full of bias when getting into the whys of events. The deeper the author goes in such, the more the author has to interpret. We interpret things based on our understanding of human nature, our concept of right and wrong. Very few authors, and they are the great ones in my opinion, examine events from all sides. It's a struggle to be fully objective, keep biases and preconceived notions out of our thinking.

    It is nearly impossible to change the thinking of someone who was raised on, "The American Civil War was fought over slavery." Indeed it was, among other things. Or, the old canard, "Roosevelt knew Japan was going to attack Pearl." A lot of knowledgeable people were sure Japan had to attack the US, not one of them could tell you the day, time or place. MacArthur's father, General A. MacArthur predicted such in the early 1900s. History is usually very nuanced and people in general do not have the attention span for "nuance."

    Winston Churchill, whom I read often, wrote great history but, he minimized his mistakes, and those of certain relatives, and stressed his brilliance. The shame of that is his brilliance needs no stressing and some of his mistakes are fascinating, deserving of study. His simple book about the American Civil War is spectacular in my opinion. But, one must read other authors on the same subject to understand how great his grasp of the war was.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. pappymac

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    What Warren said.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  52. wyfbane

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    Warren. Are you reading from a brochure? Everything you say is a great plan... that isn't happening. I know very well what needs to be done and how to raise kids. I am a superlative parent on the path to being a terrific teacher. Looking to my right and left, I dont see the commitment to the things that you and I agree need to happen in the classroom.It's just not happening an masse on the level needed to preserve this republic. And they keep complicating the education system with more and more SpEd integration and differentiated learning expectations.

    It baffles me that I present these views and you telling me what I already know needs to happen is a counter argument.

    Kids need to learn critical thinking... ya think?

    Kids can use thus super power to resist 80% of their peers and 95% of the curriculum/faculty... Maybe. If they aren't worn down. If they don't get tired of the hassle. If they don't end up falling for some young thing who will undermine them.

    The point is, every generation will get whittled down. Especially with attitudes like yours. You sit up there and poo poo this. They just laugh and wait for us to die off.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. warren

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    I am not arguing with you. I simply think what you perceive as a serious problem is simply neither new nor serious. Some parents are actively and intimately involved in their children's in all aspects of raising and education. Many leave it to others to form the child's personality. The children who are prepared will successfully resist the dogma of certain professors as they entered the "hallowed halls" fully understanding why they are there, they have a goal, and they are self-assured enough not to be side-tracked by social issues and the need to be in a herd. Those lacking that self-confidence, that will to succeed, are simply wasting money (usual mom and dad's) and are not destined to be successful until they mature later in life, if they do.

    If a student is properly equipped mentally they understand 90% of what they will hear is pure unadulterated bullshit and they are miles ahead of their fellow students. They will also understand and clearly see a lot of their peers as still children, ill prepared for college.

    As a soon to be newly minted educator, I wish you luck, you have my admiration and I hope you never lose your enthusiasm, your drive. I sincerely wish you to be wildly successful, your motives are pure. But, you are going to have to be tough and you should understand that many of your peers will work hard to see you are not successful. Your success will be an embarrassment to them. They will resent you your success. I want you to embarrass as many as possible.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  54. warren

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    one other observation. I raised mine right I believe. So when I die "they" will have yet another generation to contend with. Should I stay around long enough, eventually "they" will have my grandson to contend with. So, I'm training my replacements.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  55. deathmetal

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    If a student is properly equipped mentally they understand 90% of what they will hear is pure unadulterated bullshit and they are miles ahead of their fellow students.

    In my experience, that is social capital, more than understanding critical thinking, the ability to do which well is a rare faculty among humans, and therefore cannot be taught so much as not obstructed. But a parent who points out that the world is mostly vanity, people are mostly pretense, and that almost everything said is a lie, and instead teaches some basic "grounding" concepts and values will always advance their offspring. Good luck to your "replacements," as they have big shoes to fill.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  56. fnord

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    Mike:

    Pay attention to this:

    Your success will be an embarrassment to them. They will resent you your success. I want you to embarrass as many as possible.

    Grab a root and growl, bub.

    Fnord

    Posted 1 year ago #
  57. wyfbane

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    Aw, you guys. Warren and Fnord. You got me, right in the feels. Well my wife is one and I am going to be an educator who "gets it," and will drag as many of the kiddos to the light as she and I can. On a lighter note, this was the most gentlemanly disagreement type thing I've ever had. Warren you are awesome.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  58. tbradsim1

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    I wish all kids had a Wyfbane to teach them, or a Father, Mother, Grandparents who put their charges in the right path. I started my 8 yr old Grandson right, taught him to piss off the porch and try to hit the cat, :and how to clench a cob the right way, tobbaco will follow many years down the road at his choice. Guess it's working he's soon to be an Eagle Scout.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  59. randelli

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    Well I want to watch it for sure but we don't do cable and my area doesn't have a local PBS station I can get over the airwaves. Maybe it will be on Netflix or Amazon Prime soon.

    My grampa served on the USS Lexington during WWII, my dad served on a picket destroyer during Korea, my brother served in the USAF during peacetime; and I never served. I sometimes wonder how my life would be different today if I had.

    My son leaves for the USMC on October 10 - wants to go recon and hopes to cross over to SEAL. I was thinking Airforce, but hey, where is the excitement in that. I am both proud and terrified!

    "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way" - Mark Twain

    KG5QDZ
    Posted 1 year ago #
  60. warren

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    Forward air controllers lead a fairly interesting life. Flying nearly ground level through a hot LZ making sure everything leaves via the ramp and not the side of the aircraft was exciting work. Oh, and delivering beer, ice cream and ammunition to besieged marines, getting a wing shot up and spending a couple of days under fire was very... exciting. It wasn't 24/7 for sure. It was exciting enough for me though.

    Yes indeed, the Air Force was very dull. I suspect the PJs would all agree with me as they drop behind the lines to locate a downed pilot and extract him.

    But, hey, all kidding aside, thank the lad profusely for me. I do appreciate his service, even if it is as a "sea going babysitter" in the Department of the Navy. Good on him!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  61. warren

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    I'm pretty sure the "devil Dogs' can still take a joshing now and then. Hope I'm not wrong!

    Maybe I'll sleep at the kid's house tonight.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  62. cranseiron

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    A.F. Combat Control Team, also. They are attached to and deploy with all SOFs any time A.F. air assets are used. They are a little known special ops force.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  63. jvnshr

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    My grandpa (father's father) was from G.I. Generation, he was born in the early 1920s and had to serve in the army of USSR during the WWII, after being shot 7 times he was honorably discharged however he chose to stay and serve as a publisher in the army newspaper. After the war he returned back to his town and continued to work as a publishing director and ran a farm. He was a real gentleman, man of his word and although he was really strict towards his own children, he had always been really kind to his grandchildren. My father had to work in the farm after the school, although they had enough people working for them to do the job. That's how my grandpa raised all of his children and he was still complaining all the time that he wasn't able to teach farming to his kids. Because my father was raised with the same manners, he also became a strict person and a conservative (not the term that you use in the States, but the actual term as Google explains - a person who is averse to change and holds traditional values). He shaves every single morning, never late to any appointment, has very concrete rules, etc. Because he was raised in a very disciplined environment, he didn't want his sons to live the same thing. Now the problem starts here. 'Javan don't do that, Javan you are going to break it, Javan let me help you with what, no Javan you can't do that alone, I will help you, no Javan you are still a kid, no you are not old enough." That's how I've been raised, when I was facing a problem, I always knew that my dad will help me, he was there to solve it for me and that's the problem of the Millennials. That's why they are always late to work and appointments (not me fortunately, I have OCD with time, thanks to my Dad), that's why they never care about real life problems and that's why most of them are inconstant or unstable or liberal (again the actual term - open to new ideas). Everything has been served to them on a silver platter. They didn't ask for a silver platter, but their parents were the ones who offered it and spoiled their own children. When I tell my parents or any other parent that they are the main reason of the failure of the Millennials, they all have only one answer: 'I didn't want my kid to have the difficulties that I had to have'. Sorry but, no pain, no gain. I have a 2 year old son and I am trying not to repeat the same mistakes. He has to do everything by himself and I am only there if he asks for help, I'm always watching his back but he doesn't know that. The bad news is, not everyone does the same and that's how they are damaging their kids. By the way, those who complain about the Millennials, should wait for the Generation Z, you will be amazed I swear. The common belief is Generation Alpha (that comes after Generation Z) will be more prepared for bigger challenges than Generation Z.

    Regarding the education, one of our teachers always said: 'American education is mainly based on practice and experiments, on the other hand Eurasian education is mainly based on theories'. At the end, I guess American education system wins, because it is practical and useful in real life, with the help of eastern education however, you can win a nice amount of money in a TV show.

    Javan
    Posted 1 year ago #
  64. User has not uploaded an avatar

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    "They didn't ask for a silver platter, but their parents were the ones who offered it and spoiled their own children."

    There's a LOT of truth to that, IMO. One example I see of this has had a gigantic impact on our country. In the past, pre-teens and adolescents did a lot of seasonal agricultural work to earn their spending money, or even to help out their families. Our public school schedules were even designed to accommodate this phenomenon. Add a little prosperity, a little first-generation removal from scrabbling to make a living, and what did we get? "My boy isn't going to pick _______ all summer. He's better than that. He's going to be a big shot _______!" Forgetting, in the meantime, that a whole generation of big shot whatevers actually grew up picking whatever it was that was in season, and it helped them, not hurt them.

    How does that impact our country? Well, with our national gift for twisting the facts to fit the narrative, we have "We need illegal labor to do those jobs! Otherwise this country would starve!" Oftimes, we very simply make our own problems. I hope you are right, and that the pendulum will soon swing the other way.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  65. tbradsim1

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    JV and Alde lots of truth in both your statements, my school let us slide the first 2 weeks of school to pick cotton for our people as school opened during the time cotton needed to be harvested. If you needed to help bale hay, you were given homework ahead of time to keep up. When I worked for Exxon we lived North of Baton Rouge in the country, I got my son a workers permit at 13 to drive so he could work at a horse farm. All my children worked, I made good money, they didn't have to work, but work builds Character. Case in point, the boy who worked at 13 in a horse farm, 82nd Airborne, Desert Storm vet, works at Exxon, his next door neighbor a disabled vet, got his check snaffoed by the VA, he bankrolls the man till it gets straightened, cuts his yard. Proud of him, damn right I am. Yes Warren there are a lot of good young people, but the 1% is staggering holding the load for the 99% sliders.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  66. mso489

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    I think it was the fourth episode last night (the Vietnam War documentary). It does refresh my memory on a lot. I'd forgotten that the original Marine arrival at DaNang was an amphibious landing, unopposed. The combat accounts are horrific, as it was. And we're only through 1967. Before the Ho Chi Min trail was fully activated, most of the weapons from the North were coming on junks. My ship was still patrolling for those when I was there in '70, but they'd leave behind grandparents crewing a slow boat, and our shipboard cadres of South Vietnamese would pick up a "passenger" or two for questioning, but no weapons. Our other assignment, up near the Cue Viet River, was to warn off merchant ships that might wander into the DMZ. We had the occasional Soviet trawler for "company." Never had "swim call" off the whale boat because there had been too much trouble with water snakes, and then there were those hammerhead sharks coasting below in the clear water.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  67. warren

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    The "sliders" are there to be taken advantage of. In a humane way of course, the sliders are who the country is built on. Someone had to lay the ties, dig the ditch, pick the cotton, put left door handles on Cadillacs, etc. I simply can't buy the idea that 99 out of a hundred kids are "sliders."

    I look at fast food outlets, grocery stores, and see a lot of kids exhibiting enthusiasm for working and learning. I also see some of them sliding by but, it's not close to 99 out of a hundred. I base this position solely on my observations. I do observe people, when time permits, it was my job for many years.

    Not everyone is equipped to be "middle class", fewer attain the "upper class" status. Without a "lower class" there would be fewer people striving to attain.

    When on a campus it is easy to find the kids "acting" out as they grab one's attention and appear on the TV more often. I suggest looking around a bit, watching the kids with their laptops, heading for class and ignoring, sometimes and surprisingly well organized, unruliness. He/she is simply not interested in being diverted from the goal.

    It's not that there are lazy people or drones, slackers and such, I just think some look for them, remembering the inept more than the than the quiet and capable as the former are sometimes jarring and often memorable for their ineptness.

    Out of all my nephews and nieces I can think of only one who might be designated as a slacker. He's a struggling musician, in a world of his own but, he works hard, has a goal (some would say a frivolous goal), and is often dismissed as being out of touch, lazy, etc. He's just different than many of his peers and siblings. The work ethic is there, he simply has an unusual goal he is focused on, which doesn't fit what we "geezers" see as meaningful. I wouldn't be happy in a world without writers, pickers, artists, etc. So, I am pretty much alone in offering support for the lad. The others love him but, tsk tsk and simply shake their heads at his lack of aggression and seemingly useless dreams.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  68. mso489

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    In terms of development, one of the single best attributes in life is a realistic and intense idea about the kind of work you can and wish to do. Young people without this can drift for years. It helps to know areas where you do not have talent. Some young people adrift have too many options -- mathematical, musical, and writing talent, for example -- so they can't settle on one. My dad was worried about me because I had multiple interests in high school, including writing, shortwave radio, photography, and in a vague way drama. Interestingly, I used each of those in separate ways to earn a living over the years. On the other hand, I've seen the multi-talented bounce around and then use none of their talents professionally, though sometimes they do productive work. A student of my late wife was a talented fiction writer and a promising musician, and she got a degree and did social work. It hacked me off when late-night show hosts endlessly made fun of fast-food workers. Dealing in retail and dealing with people is a good start in many careers. Don't crap on employed people who work hard. For the record, I tended to skip those show "hosts."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  69. sablebrush52

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    Out of all my nephews and nieces I can think of only one who might be designated as a slacker. He's a struggling musician, in a world of his own but, he works hard, has a goal (some would say a frivolous goal), and is often dismissed as being out of touch, lazy, etc. He's just different than many of his peers and siblings. The work ethic is there, he simply has an unusual goal he is focused on, which doesn't fit what we "geezers" see as meaningful. I wouldn't be happy in a world without writers, pickers, artists, etc. So, I am pretty much alone in offering support for the lad. The others love him but, tsk tsk and simply shake their heads at his lack of aggression and seemingly useless dreams.

    Warren, thanks for that. It's a welcome tonic from the typical trite curmudgeonly grumbling.

    It actually takes a bit of guts, mixed with a dose of insanity, to follow one's dreams. I've enjoyed a successful career in the arts for 40 years, buying a home, supporting a family, putting my kid through school and setting aside for eventual retirement. Along the way I've enjoyed some remarkable experiences, thanks to the career path that chose me. Like your nephew, I had no support from my family. They were, in the words of my father, horrified. I don't blame them, and I pursued what enthralled me despite the obvious odds.

    At UCLA one of my teachers, James Doolin, had a heart to heart with his class. What he said was that the odds were long against making a living in the arts. He estimated that he might teach 10,000 students in the course of his entire teaching career and that if one of them made a nickel at it he would have beaten the odds. The corollary to this is that an artist should never admit the odds.

    So to those who have the courage to pursue their dreams I say go for it, but accept the responsibility for the choices that you make. Ignore the whining and/or deprecation of those too timid to try, too imprisoned in the bullshit that they were taught and now believe. And if you're pursuing a career in the arts, never, ever admit to the odds.

    On another note, haven't seen the Burns Doc, but will at some point. So no comments regarding it.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 1 year ago #
  70. mso489

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    I've always rankled at people, parents and others, telling the young that they can do anything they put their mind to. I understand the concept, that you must apply your will to your dreams to get results. As far as it goes, it's an uplifting thought. But at least as important is to discern what your talents and abilities are. People fall into all kinds of miscast roles where they are either not equipped or not really suited to the work. They're appealing to someone else's judgement about job prestige or appropriateness, and not doing the heavy work of figuring out who they are and what they want.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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