Is this a patent era Petersons?

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osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
Hello all,
I am hoping some of you Peterson's boffins can help me date my new estate find. It has no country of origin stamped on it with only 'Peterson' over 'System' and '31' on the other side. The nickel collar has just 'K&P' over 'Peterson' (no apostrophe 's' and no faux hallmarks). My research suggests that this is a patent era pipe, but I'm a skeptic by nature. So, can anyone either confirm my doubts, or make my day? Image quality is poor since I only have my mobile at mo. Better quality available later if needed.
Thanks very much for your time.
Geoff
I can't seem to find a post telling me how to insert images - hopefully this link will show my album.
Peterson images
24741


24742


24743


24744


 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,317
11,074
Maryland
postimg.cc
I would say that is most likely a Republic era pipe due to the metal chimney. An earlier piece would have a bone chimney. Of course that could be a replacement. With no COM, or hallmark, it's impossible to know for sure.
Welcome to the forum!

 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
Thanks ssjones. The reason I wondered if it was patent era is because of no COM - I thought all republic stummels had a COM (but I know next to nothing of the older peterson's). If patent era pipes had a bone chimney, perhaps it is a replacement stem then. Thought maybe it was a bit too good to be true. However, I have not seen a ferrule without the faux hallmarks before (or indeed without the apostrophe 's') and can't find any info on dating that specifically looks at the collar stamp. Thanks for your reply (and your welcome).
Geoff

 

jpmcwjr

Moderator
Staff member
May 12, 2015
24,570
27,077
Carmel Valley, CA
Unfortunately, Photofuckit is really nasty, wants big bucks for you to link to photos there.
In album select the full image, then Control-click (Mac) or Right-click (Windows) on the image itself, then choose copy image location. Now paste that URL (the full web address, which should end in .jpg) into the IMG box in the reply window of the thread you're posting to.
imag0461.jpg


 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
jpmcwjr: Thank you. I do hate photobucket, but it seems I can only edit a post once, so it's stuck there for this one, but very useful to know. Thanks. Geoff

 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
A minor update: It seems that (in most cases), the aluminum stem extension was introduced in about 1960, and replaced the original bone extension. As ssjones has pointed out, mine has an aluminum extension which places the stem post 1960.
I have found no evidence that Peterson's excluded the COM in pipes produced later than 1916, give or take. Nor can I find out when the shamrock, fox, and tower logo was introduced on the ferrule. It seems trying to date the entire pipe may be a fool's errand, in that the stem may well be a later addition. However, the 'P' of the shank stamp does not have a forked tail which maybe indicates that the stummel is a later release. If anyone knows the answers to the following questions, I'd be forever in their debt (I've spent all day on Google and this is the sum of my research):
1: Other than it actually is a patent-era stummel, does anyone know why a COM stamp would be excluded on a later pipe?

2: When was the shamrock, fox, and tower logo introduced on the ferrule.

3: I'm assuming the ferrule is nickel since there is no indication that it is silver. Does anyone know when nickel was introduced as the ferrule material? Was nickel used in the patent era? I've seen no indication that it was.
Thanks again, folks.
Geoff
BTW: Can people see the four inserted images in my earlier post? I can, but someone shout if not.

 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
Major update. I'm an idiot. Why didn't look at a new one before spending all day looking at antiques?
New one.

 

joeman

Can't Leave
Mar 6, 2016
310
36
South Carolina
You're not an idiot. The one you snagged appears to have more age to it than that shiny new one at TP.com, and a few of us were scratching our heads along with you to some degree.
Nice Pete, by the way. I have the smooth 31 as well (same tube system), and it's among my finest smoking Petes. Very dry smoke, even with a damp aromatic.

 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
That's very kind of you to say so, Joeman. It is older, but it was the stem extension that threw me. I'm no expert on Peterson's, and have only had the standard bents. The higher shelf models have extensions (I think)and ended up over-thinking the whole thing. Anyway, all's well that ends well.
Cheers.
Geoff

 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,317
11,074
Maryland
postimg.cc
Well, I only have the slightest knowledge of Patent Era pipes. I'm not sure if you have read Jim Lilley's blog entry on that era:

http://thepetersoncollector.blogspot.com/2010/08/peterson-patent-era.html
Jim does state in the Pipepedia entry:

https://pipedia.org/wiki/Peterson#Patent_Era_Pipes
The Patent Era appears to have been from the issue of the original patent in 1890, until the expiration of the patent; through to approximately 1915. The late Mike Leverette extended this period to 1922.

There are various schools of thought on this cross-over period.Personally I am not convinced that the pipes produced after 1915 are truly 'Patents',there has been great debate among collectors over the years, as to whether pipes issued during that seven year period 1915-1922 ,could have been given old patent silver ferrules,stems and markings.I am sure that the debate will continue for years to come.

Peterson pipes made during the majority of this period had no "Country of Manufacture" (COM) stamped on them. However, later in this period, say around 1915/16, they began stamping their pipes "Made in Ireland" in a block format.
However, this is definitely a modern era Peterson logo. Modern Petersons are notorious for issues, I can easily see a pipe getting sold without the COM stamp.
imag0457-600x339.jpg


 

osiris01

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 21, 2017
146
31
These are indeed deep and murky waters. I agree that this is definitely a modern stamp (in fact it was the 'P' that made me look at new models). In fact, mine is identical to the new one on TP.com except the ferrule on mine is slightly rounder - I can't see a COM stamp on the new ones and Peterson has no apostrophe 's'. I have sent an email to Peterson's which they may well ignore, but it would be nice to know what the current stance is regarding COM and the faux marks. I shall update here if I find out anything.
But, in a way, it makes my life easier. I can't afford not to sell this pipe, regardless of its value. I didn't much fancy refurbing a pipe that was potentially worth a small fortune. Neither did I fancy writing an accurate description - 'patent era pipe with a modern era stamp'. I'm now really looking forward to refinishing this one: got some great grain to it once you see through the grime.
Thank you everyone for your trouble.
Geoff

 
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