Is It Taboo For New Members To Post Critically Of Local Merchant experiences?

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puffndave

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 9, 2015
208
1
Hello, puffers!
I have been holding off on posting my recent experience at a local tobacconist for so long that it almost isn't recent anymore - it's been a matter of finding the time, but not really more than concern that I should clear this sort of reporting with the forum mods first.
Unlike some forums which I've been to on various hobbies, after carefully reviewing the rules of this site I've noticed nothing on discussions of other sites or stores, other than not to post links or anything else which may be construed as an unpaid ad (I've also noticed how these rules don't seem to stop anyone from discussing products and sources for these, despite the rather fierce tenor of said rules). Anyway, I had a bad experience somewhere which I've already discussed to some extent, but when you feel that a merchant has played by foul business practices, or attempted to do so with you, you may feel a need to warn others about this. I haven't dropped the name yet, but if I did would that be a serious problem here?
Headline capitalization fixed- Rule 9....

 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
Dave, feel free to let us know your problems. The only thing you have to be careful of is dissing one of the site sponsors and even that can be done if you do it out of respect and it is constructive criticism.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,207
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I have no problem as long as you've taken your complaint to the merchant first and it is a valid complaint. I really am uncomfortable when someone complains and they haven't yet approached the manager or owner, giving them a chance to correct matters if such correction is required.

 

zitotczito

Lifer
Aug 12, 2014
1,128
175
I also have no problem with constructive critism and as said above only after an effort has been made with the merchant to find a solution.

 

puffndave

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 9, 2015
208
1
Warren, I have done that, dealt with the owner, and although I walked away with what I wanted, my business relationship with that store was destroyed in the process. This is what happens when you believe his business practices were foul in the deal he gave you, and you have to either walk away from it unhappy, or confront him on it. For what I had at stake and the importance to me of honest business practices, I had to do the latter, and I watched him and his boss graduate from questionable to outright dishonest. Or maybe you may see it differently, depending on your own perspective.
The situation was with Edleez Tobacco in Guilderland (Albany), NY. I'm aware that some people on this forum have had experiences there, most of them positive, as has been the case with me up until recently. I discovered pipe tobacco at that store about 15 years ago, but never got very serious about smoking pipes until recently, when it became a habit to displace those which are more eminently dangerous to me at this point in my life. The store isn't nearly so big as Russ Oulette's store in the same city (Pipes and Cigars / Habana Premium), but the service has been friendly, and the few blends which they offer (including a few great house blends) are very good. Also on the upside, they really make it easier to browse and price pipes than the local competition.
The problem may have something to do with the fact that the founding proprieter, Edward Zyniecki and his wife died just over a year ago before the incident which I experienced in March of this year. My condolences to the surviving family.
THE BUY

When I walked in, I was in the mood for a new pipe, and had been reading up a bit on brands, prices, much about bowl shapes and stems, and while I was aware enough of the disadvantages of vulcanite stems that I already had a preference for acrylic stems, I found them to be in many makes the exception more than the rule with most quality pipes on my budget. I knew also that I wanted a straight, with much texture relief for cooling and rustic appeal, and the Butz-Chopin Montmartre, with it's very nicely-finished sandblasted bowl and beautiful crosscut grain on the rim really jumped out at me. I had heard of and seen some photos of vulcanite corruption, but the stem on this one didn't speak of corruption as I could imagine it, and I wondered what the material actually was. It wasn't shiny black, but the surface wasn't the least bit blotchy either, and it really appeared to my inexperienced eye that it was made purposefully with a smooth matte finish. I thought it may be a type of acrylic, not that I've ever seen any acrylic stems which are solid-colored and opaque, but the sales assistant said it was "probably" vulcanite. It also happened to be on the estate shelf, and after asking several questions about the restoration of estate pipes (none for which he could give much of an answer for), I decided that it didn't look problematic, and that it looked like a beautiful and probably good smoker for $60. I later found out that the same pipe sells now for little more than that, and on some sites the same price (new) on sale, on the online market, although some are still demanding close to $100 for it.
THE PROBLEM

When I smoked it later that same day, I learned there was something wrong with that pipe stem. After just one bowl, the stem tip had turned a disgusting, blotchy, greenish brown just from being in my mouth! I already had vulcanite stems which were decades old, with no such problems (maybe because they were kept in the dark, but I didn't know yet how that works). Questions posted to this forum revealed the truth about a vulcanite stem which isn't jet black and shiny: it's bad! But how did it first turn to a dull, dark shade of brown without turning blotchy under prior use? It was supposedly an estate pipe, right?
THE TRUTH

Two days later I had made time to make the call to straighten this out with the store management. Having four guys present in a store that size may show a committment to service, but there should also be at least one there who can answer better questions than the most mature guy who happened to be there then, and since Edleez failed me on that point, I insisted on speaking directly to management. I spoke with Jill (not sure whether she is Ed's daughter-in-law, Jill Ziedecki), who assured me that her store policy is satisfaction-based, and that a store tech would help me resolve the problem without so much as a receipt. While I didn't actually have to show a receipt, I still didn't get much help. I had read a little (without really knowing anything) about stem polishing compounds at that point, including Obsidian, but the most senior sales associate there couldn't offer better than to attempt to polish the blotches out with water (which didn't help at all) or a full refund (which I didn't want, because I still thought I had a good deal of a smoker for the price, and anticipated that my best alternative for such satisfaction was to pay a bit more for a new one where I could find it). I was also getting a bit angry over the time which this had already cost me, so I pressed on for some other sort of recourse, not understanding how difficult it can be to match a new stem with a pipe which has been smoked, even once. Chalk this up to my ignorance, but I was also confused by what the owner had told me about this "estate" pipe on the phone - that it wasn't really an estate pipe! What the hell did she mean by that, she did not elaborate, and I figured she didn't really know what her boys were doing with all of her merchandise. Anyway, I made no progress with Visit Number 2, and walked out of there smoldering more than any of my pipes had recently.
TWO WEEKS LATER:

Got a message from "Mike", who said he had a pipe in with which he hopes to "resolve my issue". This was a complete surprise to me, as I had not expected this, although it remains my opinion that this is exactly what should have been done in the first place. The next day, I put the pipe in my car, but I left it there when I walked in. Mike, who is apparently the junior member of the sales staff (looks like he's barely old enough to buy tobacco legally) looked at this middle-aged guy and said in a really terse voice "here's how it works - I need to see your pipe first"! By this time, I understood very clearly what was wrong with the pipe and what was wrong with the store personnel regarding it - it had been left under sunlight or flourescent lighting for too long, causing a non-blotchy decay because it hadn't been used or handled much, it was a nasty surprise just waiting to happen to an unsuspecting buyer - this store had taken advantage of my inexperience and played me for a chump, and boy was I ever pissed! Maybe I didn't really think I should expect a brand-new, completely uncorrupted pipe while keeping the other one which was fine but for a crappy stem (bad enough that you wouldn't want to pay close to or on par with new market value for), but hey, I had to try. I steamed out of there and came back with the crappy-stemmed pipe, and then Mike produced the new one, with a proper uncorrupted vulcanite stem. But then he proceeded insult me further! He removed the new stem from the new pipe, removed the crappy stem from the pipe which they had sold me, and then tried to fit the new stem into that pipe. "Aha - it doesn't fit! You've been smoking it!" Which I had gone over with in detail with his boss, Jill, the store owner! Of course I smoked it, once, which is the only way I would have found out how problematic it really was! Jill, you really shouldn't encourage some asswipe kid behind the counter to further insult your customers when they have gone out of their way, as a matter of principal to not just get satisfaction for the sales expectations of their purchase, but as a favor to you so that you won't have more customers complaining over such a sale, which never should have taken place under the existing conditions. Not saying that you can't sell an otherwise fine pipe with a little UV-rot on the stem, but you really should be forthcoming with such problems instead of preying on unsuspecting buyers. Anyway, I didn't back down. Mike attempted to contact his senior associate, who wasn't working that day, trying to weasel his way out of doing the right thing. I believe he contacted Jill as well. At some point while I was refusing to give in, I learned what Jill meant by "not an estate pipe", which I was sure I had pulled off the "Estate Pipes" shelf, which is that it was new, unsmoked (as I knew when I smoked it) but sold with the estate pipes for being made less-than on account of light exposure over time. Mike had also had the sense of butthurt to try and reason me away over the devaluation caused by my smoking it (as if it hadn't been damaged by the store and then sold to me that way. It was then that I served up to Boy Mike with my sincere disappointment that such a long-established and reputable store would be so dishonest and unforthcoming regarding the condition of the merchandise sold there, at which point he had to let me walk out with the all-new pipe.
I got the matter resolved, and while I don't regret what I did to have the sales staff make good for the nasty little trick they pulled, and have since learned the benefit of buying pipes online (they're warehoused in their boxes), it is unfortunate that it was at the cost of no longer being able to visit that store for the few tobacco blends which I like. Perhaps some of you, as part of the pipe-buying culture initiated, may think there is nothing unusual or particularly unforthcoming about the way that pipe was sold, but it sure is a hell of a gotcha for those who get all of their information online, where there the filters for the most situation-relevant information may fail, when you don't associate directly with other pipe smokers. Whatever your opinion may be concerning what the store personnel did and what I did, it is appreciated.

 

antbauers

Part of the Furniture Now
Jul 12, 2013
675
0
In regarding to her saying it is not really an estate, I think she meant because it was unsmoked. You can have an estate pipe, which is not brand new that is unsmoked. I'm assuming that's why it was in the estate section and problably why the vulcanite stem oxidized so quick.
Also it being vulcanite, is it possible that the older Montmartre models used to have vulcanite stems? i looked up this pipe and found some to be listed as having both depending on what site your looking at. Did your first pipe have the BC stamp on them stem?
For the most part, I think there might have been confusion between all members involved and lack of communication on their half.

 

brudnod

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 26, 2013
938
6
Great Falls, VA
I came away with this thread with three different answers:

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

No.

My grandfather took me to a movie when I was a kid. It was terrible (don't remember what it was). We left it about half way through and when I asked my grandfather why, he said, "when you pay your money for a movie, you are paying for the right to leave the movie house or never to go back again." I always loved that, more generally applied, and have practiced it ever since.

 

antbauers

Part of the Furniture Now
Jul 12, 2013
675
0
I forgot to mention either way, I think you could return to the shop without feeling awkward. Even if it's just to purchase tobacco. Although, I don't think I'd shop there anymore either. Hopefully they learned something from the situation as well. Now if you return to tell us that it was dry and you found cigarette butts in it then I'd tell everyone to stay away also, lol.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,699
16,207
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Sometimes standing up for yourself is a hassle.
I never buy a pipe unless I have inspected it personally so I do not purchase on line. Purely a personal choice on my part. I have to inspect the pipe inside and out before I part with my money and even then one sometimes gets a poor smoking pipe, through no fault of the retailer.
You had a bad experience and it sounds as though the owner/staff at the store shouldn't be in any sort of retail business. "Jill" may be in over head. That said, your entire experience sounds as though it was a hellish one and a good learning experience. It cost you a bit of time, you ended up with a satisfactory pipe and learned not to darken their door again. All and all I believe you came out on top at the end.

 

settersbrace

Lifer
Mar 20, 2014
1,565
5
I work in a shop that sells cigars and has a pretty fair offering of pipes ranging from basket pipes to handmade artisan pieces as well as a amply stocked tin and bulk tobacco selection.
For that kind of oxidation to occur on a vulcanite stem it must have been sitting in direct sunlight for a goodly amount if time without any care given to protect it which I find inexcusable at best. Some of our higher end pipes are exposed to indirect sunlight and flourescent lighting but are wiped down with a treated cloth before being displayed and I will take each one, usually once a month and hand buff the pipes so they look pristine. We want our customers to know without a doubt that they are in fact looking at a new pipe and one that's not been neglected.

I don't know that I would have gone to the extent you did over the situation but I certainly don't blame you for doing so. There should have been no argument and in fact an apology should have been in order IMHO. I can tell you that my business would have ended permanently with them after such a dealing but that's just me. Brick and mortar shops have enough working against them these days without shafting the very customers who patronize them. We try to go above and beyond with all our customers but I think even more so with newer pipe customers as we want to see you back, buying more. That happens when you satisfy people and answer their questions truthfully and knowledgeably.

 

shaintiques

Lifer
Jul 13, 2011
3,615
227
Georgia
Most shops even shops with good selections of pipes hire people who know little about pipes. And I have found this to be the case even with employees who may smoke a pipe themselves. People are uneducated, I personally think a shop owner should know as much as they can about products they are selling as should their employees but perhaps that kind of quality service just doesn't exist anymore or is a rarity. I experience it at the Briary, but most B&M's that sell pipes really don't have a clue. At least that has been my experience. The shop I frequent most however is getting there with my help. Perhaps instead of avoiding them you should do what you can to educate their staff. I have been doing just that and the response has been a great relationship and amazing service. They value my opinion and even stock anything I ask for even if it isn't super profitable for them.

 

seacaptain

Lifer
Apr 24, 2015
1,829
7
Unless I'm missing something, the story goes like this:
1. OP buys pipe at store.
2. Pipe sucks.
3. Store offers refund.
4. OP says no because it was a great deal.
5. OP and clerk(s) argue over "remedy".
6. OP gets a new pipe.
7. OP vows never to return.
Honestly, I would have ended the story at #3 and saved myself the hassle. They offered a full refund. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. What am I missing?

 

tobyducote

Lifer
Jun 10, 2012
1,204
3
New Orleans
I can see and understand your frustration but I also don't believe they tried to intentionally deceive you. The stem wasn't a total loss, it just needed to be properly restored. The shop employees probably know very little in regards to specifics of pipe care and restoration...especially since they put a new pipe with an oxidized stem in the "estate" bin. Even well established shops that I frequent have sales employees that "think" they know about pipes, pipe cleaning, and pipe restoration, and they DON'T. Over many years I still cringe at some of the misleading advice I hear some shop employees offer pipe smokers that are new to the hobby. That being said, I think the store tried to make things right by offering you a refund. It's just not reasonable to expect them to get a new stem for the pipe. There is as much or more work that goes into crafting a good quality stem as does to making a pipe. You can't just randomly "order" a stem for a pipe. That being said, there were alternative solutions that they could have suggested had they had more pipe knowledge.
There are lots of threads on this site and other sites that discuss pipe and stem restoration. If you thought you had gotten that good of a deal, and refused their refund, you could have tried polishing and restoring the stem yourself, or send the pipe to a quality restoration expert to have the stem restored or even have a new stem custom made for it, for very little expense.
There is no excuse for an employee to be disrespectful, but sometimes the customer isn't always right. They made a good faith offer, it just wasn't the offer you wanted. Sadly, it doesn't seem like they had a true pipe expert that could discuss with you what had happened and offered better solutions. Knowledge is power, and it seems like your doing it the right way, trying to increase your pipe experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, many store employees don't, unless they have a particular fondness for the pipe.
Most experienced members on this site have forgotten more about pipes and tobacco than many shop employees will ever know. Try not to allow this experience to completely sour you on this shop...(I have NO affiliation with this shop)..if you strive to become more knowledgable, they will begin to recognize the value you bring and will turn to you for advice and suggestions...turn this challenge into an opportunity to strengthen your relationship with this shop.
Just my thoughts on the subject...best of luck on future purchases...we have some great pipe makers and restoration experts on this site that are always willing to offer their recommendations. Dont be afraid to ask question, that's one of the reasons this site is so great...everyone's willingness to help out.
Thanks for posting your experience...

 

jessicac

Starting to Get Obsessed
Aug 7, 2014
223
2
The new proprietors may be finding their feet. While the salespeople may not be up to scratch, it might be a good idea to advise the proprietor of your long standing patronage of the establishment, as well as the detailed experience which led you to boycott the store.
It may assist them in getting better staff and/or learning from the experience.

 

newbroom

Lifer
Jul 11, 2014
6,088
6,408
Florida
puffndave, I don't think you're really into the spirit here.

Money paid for goods and services doesn't confer ownership of the establishment. You are free to take your business elsewhere.

I'm guessing that's exactly what this store is hoping for.

You ARE making more of this than is necessary. Get a freaking grip on a pipe with your favorite blend, put on some classical music, and relax for goodness sakes.

It's not worth getting yourself that worked up over. You were probably projecting the anger you somehow generated of perceived negligence or omissions when you went back and left your original purchase in the car.

Sometimes, a customer cannot be satisfied. Some people go about their commerce with an attitude of aggression and intimidation and they get the response that will engender.

If the shoe fits.

 
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