In Search of Vinegar and Tang

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lightmybriar

Lifer
Mar 11, 2014
1,315
1,838
Greetings, all.
Due to the small size of my McClelland supply, I am wanting to save what I have left for special occasions. Thus, I am in search of any Virginias out there that have even a small bit of what many term the "vinegar" or "ketchup" quality to them. I have tried and enjoy many types and varieties of Virginia tobaccos, from the earthy and deep flavors of St. James Flake to the bright and grassy citrus taste of Orlik Golden. I know there is a thread discussing good virginias to fill the new void, but I'm not so much in search of a replacement as I am in search of a familiar reminder. There may not be anything close, but this seemed like the right place to ask!
Whether you liked it or hated it, do any of you fine folks have any recollection of popping a tin and catching the ketchup cloud escaping?
Thanks for your help!

 

dottiewarden

Lifer
Mar 25, 2014
3,053
57
Toronto
If you want ketchup stick with McClelland, but when it comes to vinegar, with a little pepper thrown in for good measure, you can't go wrong with Peterson's Irish Oak.

 

lasttango

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 29, 2012
875
17
Wilmington, De / Ithaca, NY
Try Russ Ouellette's / Hearth and Home's Frenchy's SunaBitches. It's a great tobacco and in my opinion it's quite unappreciated. Despite the fact it has some perique and burley... I do get some ketsup and a bit of tang. The price tag is nice as well.

 

rx2man

Part of the Furniture Now
May 25, 2012
590
11
@ lightmybriar, I have wondered the same thing. Below is a cut and paste from a previous post that discussed the McClelland smell. As has been said McClelland put a lot of time in producing their tobacco and unless someone else wants to spend the time to age and sweat the leaf its not going to happen, its not a simple spray it with vinegar and you're done........
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/why-do-all-mcclellands-blends-smell-like-ketchupcatsup
".....The aroma is so strong and distinct to McClelland's, it's hardly a surprise this question is so perennial.

Neither Mary nor Mike seem to indulge in forum shenanigans, though they do answer the telephone (anyone remember those?). Here's what Mike said when asked:

I picked up the phone and suggested to the McClelland folks that we address this Posting. It did not take much encouragement. If you prefer bottom lines, there is no ketchup used in any of their blends what so ever.
So why does it smell like ketchup?

McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.

The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur.
from here, 5 years ago http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/an-fyi-for-smokers-of-mcclelland-matured-virginias
Here's a good one from Ted Gage essentially saying the same

This [what people refer to as ketchupy/vinegary] is a direct result of the intense and intentional stoving process used for selected blends, but is by no means “characteristic” of McClelland blends. It is also a completely natural occurance caused by the stoving, aging and caking process, and something that frequently occurs with Virginia tobaccos over the course of many years of tin aging. It is not contrived by the use of flavorings or any artificial processes.

As anyone who does some cooking knows, heat and pressure have the ability to transform ingredients from one thing to something completely different. A tough and terrible pork shoulder roast, cooked slowly for hours, can transform into something totally soft and delectible. And think about Perique, which is basic Burley tobacco that under tremendous pressure and with sufficient aging, transforms into a completly different tobacco. Clearly, the same is true with Virginia leaf. It can range from bright flue-cured to something dark and unctuous that is quite different from the original product. My point is that the processing makes all the difference.

and lastly an extract from a Q&A with GLP, who answers generally

H.R. writes: Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?

Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."

 

Chasing Embers

Captain of the Black Frigate
Nov 12, 2014
43,390
109,120
Vinegar and Tang
woman-with-a-bottle-of-apple-cider-vinegar-2-400x250.jpg


 

Chasing Embers

Captain of the Black Frigate
Nov 12, 2014
43,390
109,120
I've been trying to be good since the first post. I couldn't take it anymore. :mrgreen:

 

lightmybriar

Lifer
Mar 11, 2014
1,315
1,838
Has anybody tried Red Carpet by C&D? I was reading reviews looking for complaints about any kind of McClelland type smell and it got a few haha.

 

midwestpipesmoker70

Can't Leave
Nov 28, 2011
431
433
IL
I love the vinegar smell, not sure why but it is just enticing to me. I will say, at least with older tins, that I get a little of that tangy odor with Mississippi River and have always wondered if they were using McClelland Virginias in the blend. Obviously Mississippi River isn't a Virginia blend so this is not a recommendation for a replacement for a McClelland virginia blend, it has been something that I've wondered since popping my first tin of MR. Is my nose deceiving me?

 

lightmybriar

Lifer
Mar 11, 2014
1,315
1,838
Mississippi River has always confused me. I use to really enjoy it, but I have never really tasted Latakia in it. It definitely has a unique smell. I could see how one could group it in with McClelland. That might be one I'll add to the list to revisit!

 

hawky454

Lifer
Feb 11, 2016
5,338
10,221
Austin, TX
I’d like to sugggest St. Bruno Flake. It is nothing like McClelland tobaccos but I get exactly what you described in the title. Instead of catsup (ketchup) I get more of an apple cider vinegar and it’s sweet and tangy. There is a slight floral note but the more I smoke it the less I taste it, it is not perfumed like most Lakelands and I know a lot of people consider this to be a Lakeland but I’m not one of them. If I were to compare it to a condiment, McClelland would be catsup, and St. Bruno would be sweet and sour sauce. This stuff is the cats meow, the bees knees, the dogs bark, the... well, you get the point.

 

davidintexas

Part of the Furniture Now
Jun 4, 2013
675
210
Hawky, shush! Think about what you're saying. Do you really want our beloved St.Bruno running out all the time? No folks. Nothing here to interest you. No resemblance to vinegar, ketchup, sweet and sour, etc etc. Foul tasting stuff here this SB. Just move on. :wink:

 

lightmybriar

Lifer
Mar 11, 2014
1,315
1,838
Some nice suggestions here I wouldn't have thought of. Thanks guys! Hopefully this will help some others who are on a similar search.

 

midwestpipesmoker70

Can't Leave
Nov 28, 2011
431
433
IL
Sounds good about the St. Bruno Flake...I just ordered 60 tins for the cellar. Just kidding. :nana: I will get around to ordering a tin or two one of these day. It has been on my radar for a while.

 

hawky454

Lifer
Feb 11, 2016
5,338
10,221
Austin, TX
Hawky, shush! Think about what you're saying. Do you really want our beloved St.Bruno running out all the time? No folks. Nothing here to interest you. No resemblance to vinegar, ketchup, sweet and sour, etc etc. Foul tasting stuff here this SB. Just move on. :wink:
Lol. I know man, I thought about that after I posted it. I promise to shut up about it from here on out. Need to keep quiet about the blends we love these days... sad but true.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
Lord help me, Duane, I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw the title. Lowbrow minds must think alike.

 

briarbuck

Lifer
Nov 24, 2015
2,288
5,494
Funny how everyone's nose works. I don't get vinegar, much more of a port wine (pre vinegar I guess) or dried cranberry off the McC blends.

 

hawky454

Lifer
Feb 11, 2016
5,338
10,221
Austin, TX
I’m not a fan of it as it’s just too light for me but I definitely get the catsup vibe from SPC Mississippi River. I had an 8oz tin of it from 2012 that I opened not too long ago, granted it was a whole different beast in 2012 than it is today but the VA’s turned almost black and the oily chunks smelled very similar to those that McClelland produced. I consider it more of a VA than I do a Balkan as I can barely perceive the Latakia and the Orientals.

 
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