How much will you pay for a fraized pipe?

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bigpond

Lifer
Oct 14, 2014
2,019
13
The Eltang Devil Anse pipes, (similar design available for less at the Danish Pipe Shop) seem to fly off the shelves at SPC. Recently Peter Heeschen unloaded large lot of what appeared to be fraized pipes too. All the above are priced from 500-800 usd. In at least one of the two examples the pipes are were only designed by the pipe maker. What do you folks think about this?
Do you see this as carvers cashing in? Or perhaps, carvers are suggesting machine made pipes are equal to the quality of a handmade? And if so, do you see this as a signal as to where pipe production is headed?

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,459
There's no discounting the power of the image expanded on media. The Hatfield and McCoy television drama was well produced and well acted and made its mark, and that nose warmer pipe was one of the stars of the show. So yes, pipe carvers are cashing in, and that may be good for pipe smokers in general, by sustaining a number of talented carvers, or it may be bad for pipe smokers by inflating the price of pipes in general. Since it isn't a huge market, I suspect it will help much more than hurt. Since I find the patriarchs of these families more tragic than admirable, I'm not drawn to the pipe. I have a nose warmer or two the style of which I prefer, one of them carved by a country gent who is so independent he doesn't sell his pipes online. Him I admire. I don't know what a fraized pipe is either, but I'd like to be informed!

 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,439
11,344
Maryland
postimg.cc
Interesting question.

It depends on how old they are and the maker. For older British makes, the sky is the limit.

For a current day maker, I guess my Chris Askwith "Hand Finished" would apply. They run in the $120 range and are well worth the money (say vs. an entry level Peterson/Savinelli/Stanwell, etc.)

 

bigpond

Lifer
Oct 14, 2014
2,019
13
Isn't Chacom making all of Eltang's pipes for him now? I thought that this was just understood.

No. Chacom hired Eltang to design a line of pipes. They are marketed as Chacom pipes, designed by Eltang and the stamping reflects this. Price range is roughly 200-300 usd. According to SPC these come directly from Tom.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,459
Thanks on defining fraized. I think I saw this process in the recently posted video on the Dr. Grabow factory. Those briars were shaped in seconds. Impressive.

 

dmcmtk

Lifer
Aug 23, 2013
3,672
1,685
An old one, but a good one, Charatan's Make 1945,
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/pipe-dream

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
If there's a white dot on the stem, I might pay a good bit for one.
bigpond, not sure I'm following what the question/issue is here. Was the pipe advertized as a regular Eltang or whatever, but it was actually frazed out on a machine?

 

swilford

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 30, 2010
208
734
Longs, SC
corporate.laudisi.com
This is silly. The initial assertion just isn't true. It also just misses the point.
Tom's pipes aren't fraized. He does a fairbit, including on these, with templates on a lathe, with the detail work done on a sanding disk, but this is substantially equivalent to how any good pipe maker would make a billiard, but with a slightly more sophisticated lathe (that lets him control angles to align for drilling in the same step that he's turning the shank, except in this case, he's turning the shank round and then, I presume, reshaping to the oval on the sanding disk).
Fraizing refers very specifically to a multi-step process by which a stummel is has various shaping steps done by a machine with metal templates determining the shape. Generally, it's something that happens only on an industrial scale because the efficiencies associated with the production method can only be had at really large quantities: specifically to this, even if Tom were so inclined, it'd be crazy for him to deploy the machinery at tool up for a run of this size (forty pipes). This is how most Peterson, Chacom, Savinelli etc pipes are made.
There's another method that the Danes usually describe as 'copy-fraizing,' which refers to a machine that, fairly slowly, copies a pipe from a plastic template (or in some cases from an existing stummel that was hand shaped). The shaping is pretty rough and requires some refinement after the fact. This is how, for example, most Neerup pipes are made. Chacom has both fraizing equipment and a copy-fraizer. They only use the latter in specific circumstances when they can't use the former because a) it's slower, and b) it requires more (or at least different) expertise to run.
There are a bunch of different ways to get to the same result, and the result is the bit that matters. Fraizing leaves the manufacturer with very, very little control over grain patterns and the like, but it's a fairly efficient way to turn, say, 400 bowls. The Danish copy-fraizer offers more shaping flexibility and more control over grain placement, but requires a bunch more expertise to run and it's a lot slower.
What Tom is doing is turning the bowls on a lathe, using a template guide that he made to help with consistency of shape and to speed the process up some. It still requires a ton of work around the shank/bowl junction to get the cheeking right and critical knowledge to manage the process to yield good pipes.
The declarative statement that these are fraized is a) wrong, and b) pretty much misses the point. The goal here is to create the best pipe possible. Given that Tom is one of the most skilled pipe makers in the world, he's going to do whatever yields the best pipes.
Tom also makes a substantially similar shape under the Sara Eltang label that has different production standards and methods. The Tom Eltang pipes have hand cut vulcanite stems; the Sara Eltang version has stems made from modified acrylic blanks, for example. There are a number of other differences associated with the care with which they are finished.
So, the Tom Eltang Devil Anse pipes are entirely made by Tom, turned on a lathe, shaping is finished on a sanding disk, he sands and stains, and cuts vulcanite mouth pieces. The Sara Eltangs of the same shape are largely handled similarly with lower standards for the finishing, wood and the stems are modified acrylic blanks. In the case of the Sara Eltang pipes, some of the work is done by people Tom hires from time to time, but that isn't true of the Tom Eltang pipes (and most of the work on the Sara Eltang pipes is done by Tom).
As for Peter Heeschen, the classics (of which we've had few for years) are hand turned on a lathe and the freehands (think not perfectly radially symmetrical bowls) are shaped on a sanding disk. If you look at a half dozen Bent-P shapes in person, that's pretty obvious because there's tremendous variation from pipe to pipe.
The original poster seems to suggest that either or both of these pipe makers are being somehow misleading and that this is somehow scandalous. He also seems to suggest that he has some super secret source of juicy details. Guys: it's pipe making; there just isn't any juicy scandal!
Sykes

 

zack24

Lifer
May 11, 2013
1,726
2
+1 on what Sykes said. ...if you haven't spent time In the shops of guys like Eltang, you're guessing-not giving an informed opinion..btw Sykes, I really , really need some time with Tom..:)

 

bigpond

Lifer
Oct 14, 2014
2,019
13
The original poster seems to suggest that either or both of these pipe makers are being somehow misleading and that this is somehow scandalous. He also seems to suggest that he has some super secret source of juicy details. Guys: it's pipe making; there just isn't any juicy scandal!
There is no direct link from the carver to the consumer; there's only the vendor. The pipe makers are not misleading anyone and there is no scandal. My post implied none of that. Neither did I imply a "super secret source" for juicy details. The ad hominem is out of place.
This is a discussion forum and I was raising a subject that I find interesting given the wave of high end, near identical pipes from these two carvers. People have for decades paid (and continue to) more, relatively, than what is being asked here, sometimes significantly so, for pipes that are hand finished. These buyers are not necessarily ill-informed and again, scandal is not implied.
As far as I'm aware using a template for a standard shape is standard practice. It's the degree of automation in achieving that shape that is interesting.
The declarative statement that these are fraized is a) wrong, and b) pretty much misses the point. The goal here is to create the best pipe possible. Given that Tom is one of the most skilled pipe makers in the world, he's going to do whatever yields the best pipes.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Having 10-20 or more nearly identical Eltang pipes on the market at one time is a new phenomenon and is significant shift to the what is for most a cottage industry (specifically high end, pipe makers).
Tom also makes a substantially similar shape under the Sara Eltang label that has different production standards and methods. The Tom Eltang pipes have hand cut vulcanite stems; the Sara Eltang version has stems made from modified acrylic blanks, for example. There are a number of other differences associated with the care with which they are finished.
The Devil Anse offered through the Danish Pipe Shop is not stamped Sara Eltang. That pipe design predates the SPC rollout, and sample vary no more dimensionally than the SPC pipes. Nicolaj says Tom makes those pipes by himself. They do have acrylic stems and lack the barber pole rustication of the SPC Devil Anse.
If you look at a half dozen Bent-P shapes in person, that's pretty obvious because there's tremendous variation from pipe to pipe.
This may very well be the case, but if you look at the pictures as presented and compare the specifications, the pipes have a similar amount of variability as is typical of Savinelli pipes of the shape shape number.
These are the first two Heeschen's listed:
http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/heeschen/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=157066

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/heeschen/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=157070
Again, these is no scandal and the details are easily presented. No one is being mislead in to thinking they are buying unique pipe. That wasn't the point. The point was to get people to talk about this new trend in production and what impact, if any it has on their future purchases.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,733
16,332
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Very informative indeed. Fraized? Totally hand wrought? I'm lucky in that I really care only about the finished product, look, fit, finish and how well it smokes. I'm simply not that interested in how the product was made. It's only the end result that I am interested in.
This is not to say that I do not admire the fine workmanship of some of the carvers. Even pipes I find horrible to my eye can still exhibit the skill of the craftsman. I might find fault with his eye, never with his skill.I

 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
5,542
14,278
This "types of tools used" debate---because that's what it is---is the oldest one in the hobby. It beats the runners-up---airway size and chamber coating---in passion, too.
Which makes no sense to me, because airway size and chamber coating cause performance differences that can be detected by (at least some) people, and is therefore an unresolvable personal preference thing a la Ford vs. Chevy, or Blondes vs. Brunettes. There is no right answer.
"Machine Made" vs. "Hand Made," though, CAN'T EVEN BE DEFINED except arbitrarily, and everyone draws their sand-line in a different place.
:lol:

 

swilford

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 30, 2010
208
734
Longs, SC
corporate.laudisi.com
There is no direct link from the carver to the consumer; there's only the vendor. The pipe makers are not misleading anyone and there is no scandal. My post implied none of that. Neither did I imply a "super secret source" for juicy details. The ad hominem is out of place.
I'm sorry if I over-assumed; it was your assertion that one of the two did not actually make the pipes, but only designed them, that I was responding to with my assertion that there was some sort of implied scandal (Your words: "In at least one of the two examples the pipes are were only designed by the pipe maker.") You also said that Peter Heeschen 'unloaded a large lot of what appeared to be fraized pipes too.' (For the record, Peter's total production is down to about 100 pipes a year, from 300 year in 2005-2010). Perhaps I read too much into these statements?
The Devil Anse offered through the Danish Pipe Shop is not stamped Sara Eltang. That pipe design predates the SPC rollout, and sample vary no more dimensionally than the SPC pipes. Nicolaj says Tom makes those pipes by himself. They do have acrylic stems and lack the barber pole rustication of the SPC Devil Anse.
Sorry. I checked these. Tom's also made Sara Eltang stamped pipes in the same shape which are equivalent to the ones stamped Copenhagen Collection on Danish Pipe Shop.
Also, I'd like to add that I think the Sara Eltangs (and these under discussion) are pretty amazing pipes for the money. I have a couple of Sara Eltang pipes and a few Tom Eltang pipes and I'm happy with all of them. They're not made to the same standard--hence the price difference--but they're wickedly good pipes for $300-ish.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Having 10-20 or more nearly identical Eltang pipes on the market at one time is a new phenomenon and is significant shift to the what is for most a cottage industry (specifically high end, pipe makers).
Really? High end pipe makers, excepting people with really small productions and extremely high prices (Nanna, Lars, Teddy, Gotoh etc), do things like this. A number of American pipe makers have done P&T Magazine pipes and those are equivalent in terms of numbers and consistency from pipe to pipe. It's just not that atypical.
This isn't new, though. This is, in some ways, more like artisan pipe making until the past few years, where pipe makers (in pre-internet pipe making days) tended to stick to a smaller repertoire and make substantially the same shapes, by hand, over and over again.
Sykes

 
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