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Health Benefits Of Tobacco

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  • Started 1 year ago by jitterbugdude
  • Latest reply from jvnshr
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    jitterbugdude

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    As requested by several members, here is a little info on the health benefits of smoking. My intent is not to prove tobacco is healthy/unhealthy but just to show that there is a lot of research that shows there are benefits to smoking. Life is all about trade-offs (benefits to risks). The nature of this subject would best be explained in a very large book but due to the nature of forums I have to limit myself to brevity. I have included just a few research papers showing the possible benefits of consuming tobacco. There are many, many such studies.

    1. Tobacco improves memory
    J Psychopharmacol. 2014 Oct; 28(10): 915–922.
    Published online 2014 Aug 13. doi: 10.1177/0269881114543721
    PMCID: PMC4305443
    NIHMSID: NIHMS657005
    Effects of Tobacco Smoke Constituents, Anabasine and Anatabine, on Memory and Attention in Female Rats
    Edward D. Levin, Ian Hao, Dennis Burke, Marty Cauley, Brandon J. Hall, and Amir H. Rezvani
    Author information ► Copyright and License information ►
    Abstract
    Nicotine has been well characterized to improve memory and attention. Nicotine is the primary, but not only neuroactive compound in tobacco. Other tobacco constituents such as anabasine and anatabine also have agonist actions on nicotinic receptors. The current study investigated the effects of anabasine and anatabine on memory and attention. Adult female Sprague-Dawley rats were trained on a win-shift spatial working and reference memory task in the 16-arm radial maze or a visual signal detection operant task to test attention. Acute dose-effect functions of anabasine and anatabine over two orders of magnitude were evaluated for both tasks. In the radial-arm maze memory test, anabasine but not anatabine significantly reduced the memory impairment caused by the NMDA antagonist dizocilpine (MK-801).

    2. Prevents Alzheimer's ( there is a lot of evidence for this)
    Anatabine lowers Alzheimer's Aβ production in vitro and in vivo.
    Paris D1, Beaulieu-Abdelahad D, Bachmeier C, Reed J, Ait-Ghezala G, Bishop A, Chao J, Mathura V, Crawford F, Mullan M.
    Abstract
    Brain Aβ accumulation represents a key pathological hallmark in Alzheimer's disease. In this study, we investigated the impact of anatabine, a minor alkaloid present in plants of the Solanacea family on Aβ production in vitro using a cell line overexpressing the human amyloid precursor protein (APP) and in vivo using a transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer's disease. In vitro, anatabine lowers Aβ₁₋₄₀ and Aβ₁₋₄₂ levels in a dose dependent manner and reduces sAPPβ production without impacting sAPPα levels suggesting that anatabine lowers Aβ production by mainly impacting the β-cleavage of APP. Additionally, we show that anatabine lowers NFκB activation at doses that inhibit Aβ production in vitro. Since NFκB is known to regulate BACE-1 expression (the rate limiting enzyme responsible for Aβ production), we determined the impact of anatabine on BACE-1 transcription. We show that anatabine inhibits BACE-1 transcription and reduces BACE-1 protein levels in human neuronal like SHSY-5Y cells suggesting that the Aβ lowering properties of anatabine are mediated via a regulation of BACE-1 expression. In vivo, we show that an acute treatment with anatabine for four days significantly lowers brain soluble Aβ₁₋₄₀ and Aβ₁₋₄₂ levels in a transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer's disease. Altogether our data suggest that anatabine may represent an interesting compound for regulating brain Aβ accumulation.

    3. Prevents Parkinson's
    Neurotoxicology. 2004 Jan;25(1-2):279-91.
    Tobacco leaf, smoke and smoking, MAO inhibitors, Parkinson's disease and neuroprotection; are there links?
    Castagnoli K1, Murugesan T.
    Abstract
    The potential neuroprotective properties of monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) inhibitors have been of interest in part because of the role that this enzyme plays in the bioactivation of the parkinsonian inducing neurotoxin 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP). Interestingly, tobacco smokers have lowered levels of brain and blood platelet MAO-B activity and a well documented lowered incidence of Parkinson's disease (PD) compared to non-smokers. This correlation has led to the intriguing question of whether there are possible relationships between smoking, MAO-B activity and PD.

    I have noticed that with each passing year tobacco becomes more and more vilified so much so that it is now considered completely evil. Researchers back through the 80's all knew of tobacco's effect on lowering AD and PD as well as MS and improving brain function ( as evidenced by their many research papers). Now it is hard to find any current research paper that talks of the benefits. Studies are typically designed to prove that tobacco is bad, not to truly investigate the good and bad aspects.

    If you want to conduct your own research you have to figure out how to get by the dishonest science that is posted. If you were to do a search for "Smoking and Alzheimer's" you would probably get 10,000 hits, all telling you how smoking causes AD. To get to the truth you need to know how to ask the question.

    So(a). Alzheimer's Disease (AD). In a nut shell the hallmarks of AD are the destruction of Acetylcholine receptors and the build up of A-beta protein. Smoking upregulates acetylcholine receptors (increases the quantity) and reduces A-beta. Its interesting to note that there are only 2 kinds of acetylcholine receptors. Muscarinic and Nicotinicacetylcholine. Interesting how the medical field always leaves off the "nicotine" portion of the word when talking of AD. (b) One of the hallmarks of Parkinson's Disease (PD) is the loss of Dopamine receptors in the substantia nigra of the brain. The loss is due to an enzyme the rises as we age. It is: Monoamine Oxidase (MAO). Tobacco is a natural MOA inhibitor which probably accounts for long time smokers having an 80% reduction in PD.

    Sorry for the long post. I feel I should add more studies and go into greater details of the beneficial pharmacological effects of tobacco but a forum isn't the best place for this.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. btp79

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    Not to split hairs, but it looks like these articles are speaking to the potential health benefits of tobacco not so much of smoking. Do the studies mention the route of administration? I'd love to see a rat sized pipe and rat trained to smoke it

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. cosmicfolklore

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    Unfortunately, I've lost a few pipe smoking friends to Parkinsons and Alzheimers.
    A couple of these were mentioned on the Radioshow years back, and I think we even had a thread on the Alzheimer's study. My damn memory, but I think it was that just one pipe full of tobacco was way more nicotine than the study tested with. So, it is a moot point for pipesmokers, but it was nice to see that at least some scientist decided to at least look for a positive in tobacco. I think they all concluded that more studies were needed.

    Michael
    Posted 1 year ago #
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    molach95

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    If I think about it most pipe smokers in my family were also cigarette smokers, so that eschews things somewhat, but my grandmother died of Alzheimer's and was a regular cigarette smoker. Most of them died of heart problems or strokes, or emphysema. I have a very good friend whose grandfather smoked a pipe constantly and died of oral cancer that returned, despite having most of his lip cut away.

    The problem is there's so many factors to consider - lifestyle, stress, alcohol, diet. My grandfather pretty much ate cigarettes and smoked a pipe and sadly died of a stroke, but he was also on very strong medication for decades that had serious side effects. Two of my great grandfathers smoked pipes, one of which died of a stroke (but he also smoked, drank and had a poor diet) and the other had serious lung problems and also had a lot of stress. My great uncle that taught my brother and I to smoke pipes also died of a heart attack. I could put the strokes and heart attacks down to excessive nicotine but had alcohol and medication in the mix too. It gets more complicated when I consider how my great, great grandfather smoked strong rope tobacco for decades in his pipe, didn't drink and wasn't very anxious and died at 87 of natural causes, and my paternal grandfather gave up smoking in the 1970s and still died of cancer a few years ago.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. woodsroad

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    "Prevents" is the wrong word. "Is shown in lab animals to decrease the potential likelyhood" is probably more accurate, but still stretching it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    molach95

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    I'm sure like any drug e.g. caffeine or alcohol tobacco has health benefits when taken in moderation. I feel the same way about smoking as I do drinking coffee; both probably have similar health costs when taken to excess but in moderation they relieve a lot of my stress and seem to sharpen my thought processes. There is one health benefit of smoking I've heard of and that's keeping fleas and parasites at bay. Travelling people (sometimes called gypsies) in Scotland traditionally (up until the 1940s or so) got their kids to start smoking pipes as young as possible, even at under 5 years old to protect them from disease-carrying fleas and bugs. I notice pipe smoking keeps mosquitos and midges away, but I can't confirm the travellers' more general beliefs in the anti-bacterial properties of tobacco. They also believed that chewing rope tobacco could keep illnesses like typhoid away.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. woodsroad

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    No wonder I've had an overwhelming desire to buy a caravan, wear a headscarf and tell fortunes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    molach95

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    I heard a great story once of a gypsy woman who happened across her daughter as she was travelling down in the Borders. The daughter had her 7 year old son strapped to her back in a plaid (tartan blanket), a bit like a squaw with a papoose. They were chatting away when the mother suddenly saw smoke coming out of the bundle and remarked "I think your wee boy's on fire!". Her daughter just laughed and opened her plaid to reveal her son with a clay pipe in his mouth, puffing away.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. daveinlax

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    I wonder if you can avoid the risk and still get the health benefits with nicotine replacement?

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    Anonymous

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    The info for pipe smoking as far as what chemicals go into the tobacco is somewhat obscure, but I have seen formaldehyde, benzene, and others listed in some sites. I don't know who puts what, but I see the State of California warning on even C&D tins, which is supposed to be natural. Then there is what is released from the combustion process. I just try to be moderate and not kid myself of the chemicals and potential risk even if small. Same goes for cigars. There is plenty other harmful chemicals in other things that you wouldn't suspect that almost unnoticeably chip away at our health. I had a friend that had a friend that made cigars and pipe tobacco 100 percent organic in a warehouse. He was a Chinese doctor of natural medicine who was meticulous in his process. There was a distinct purity to his stuff, which he did not sell but shared, that I cannot seem to find in any other product. I sure miss those cigars.
    Overall, there are risks. I have bought pipes from many dudes quitting because they had health problems from it. When you take a hard side for it in my personal opinion it is a political battle, and that I don't get into. I smoke pipes and cigars and I am just as forgetful, foggy headed, and absent minded as ever.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. cosmicfolklore

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    on even C&D tins, which is supposed to be natural.

    What makes you think this? I am just curious. I have never seen anything from C&D proclaiming that their tobacco is all natural.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. woodsroad

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    If you really want to understand what these studies are saying, and the impact that smoking tobacco has on health, you need a much wider context, including findings from other, similar studies, the standing of the researchers involved and who paid for the studies. Moreover, you need to understand the other health risks involved in tobacco smoking, and weigh the detrimental against the potentially beneficial. It would also help to have a background in human health. These aren't simple issues.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Cosmic, I read in previous threads that they(C&D) claim not to put anything in their tobacco, so I am not sure where that information was obtained. I believe it came from an interview.I came across the thread trying to find the most natural stuff.

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    Anonymous

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    Here is the thread

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/how-do-you-know-what-pipe-tobacco-has-additives

    However I am in no place to say what is or isn't in what, but would like to know the closest to natural brands I can find.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. cosmicfolklore

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    Additives, I am thinking that he meant PG's and chemicals that would help keep the product moist. But, if C&D do not use any casings, then I will eat my computer. They even have their own aromatics. And, they've been experimenting with new mold-inhibitors.

    This Fall, I can send you all natural tobaccos from my own harvest, and you'll see why they all have casings. But, I don't think you'll really want to smoke uncased tobacco. It really isn't very good, and burns like crap.

    GLP has some of his earlier works that are supposedly made with blended uncased tobacco. But, he is heavy on the latakia, so he doesn't need to add any flavorings. But his newer work is a whole different thing. He even has some new aromatics.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. sablebrush52

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    Nicotine and other tobacco constituents MAY have health benefits, and these can be given to patients without their having to be smoked. Smoking isn't healthy, except, perhaps, for the relaxing aspect. Look, when even fleas consider you a pariah for smoking, there's a lesson there.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 1 year ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    you really want to understand what these studies are saying, and the impact that smoking tobacco has on health, you need a much wider context, including findings from other, similar studies, the standing of the researchers involved and who paid for the studies.

    I agree 100% but like I said earlier, A topic such as this really deserves a book. The topic is way to complicated for a forum such as this.. not that I'm calling anyone stupid but rather a topic like this would take up gazillions a gigabites..

    Smoking isn't healthy,

    I disagree 100%. There are enough studies showing reductions in brain disorders due to moderate smoking. Note the word "moderate".

    To encourage anyone that wants to investigate this further I would suggest getting on Pubmed and use search terms such as "Anatabine and Alzheimers", "MOA-B and smoking" other terms would be "Anasabine, Nicotine, smoking and nicotinicacetylcholine receptors" etc. There is a wealth of information out there its just obscured by the antis

    Btw, A good Government issued book is called "Monograph No.9" It was published by the U.S. Gov't in response to the cigar craze of the 90's. It's intent was to show that smoking cigars was not any less harmful than cigarettes. What it showed was that people that smoke 2 cigars a day live longer than non smokers.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. sablebrush52

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    There are enough studies showing reductions in brain disorders due to moderate smoking.

    Please point me to 1 study that specifically points out that the benefit is quantifiably related to introducing these drugs and compounds into the body by smoking them, as opposed to introducing these drugs and compounds thru other means. You are conflating the effect of certain drugs and compounds with the act of smoking them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. woodsroad

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    Dud Monograph #9 weigh the benefits accrued cigars smokers by virtue of their overall higher socio-economic standing? Money may not buy happiness, but it does equate to better diet and healthcare.

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    I don't know that I would consider the government as an institution that cares about my health, nor do I necessarily trust their info. My grandfathers were in WW2. They were told to smoke them if they had them, or keep working. So to get a break, most men smoked cigarettes. I enjoy pipes and cigars as it is relaxing and I like the flavors, but I never think I am doing something that is improving my health.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. brian64

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    Look, when even fleas consider you a pariah for smoking, there's a lesson there.

    This is only anecdotal, but I did experience an overall general improvement to my health when I stopped exposing myself to fleas.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs0Ap1PoTDA

    “Bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.” – George Carlin
    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. npod

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    Please be very careful with this post. It is a slippery slope to present opinion data on this topic. I am a physician with a Masters degree in clinical trial design. I am one of the few physicians heavily involved in the high end tobacco space (pipes and cigars). Although I make no excuses for my enjoyment of smoking cumture, I do stay clear of justifying it with data. The area of “research” and evidence based medicine is a complex specialty and highly debated even for specialists. In summary, there are essentially no proven overt health benefits to tobacco or nicotine, and the research would be tabled anyway. The real discussion for pipe smokers is the lack of evidence proving harm (vs cigs, chewing tobacco, etc). And remember always that the FDA was presented with granular data and didn’t care one lick.

    Smoke in good health.
    Try to avoid addiction at all costs.
    Excercise.
    Pay your taxes.
    Eat right.
    Don’t be mean.
    Everything in moderation.

    Neal
    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Cosmic, I would love to try some of that harvest, but will take your word on the uncased. I guess to make myself clear I personally am not concerned with the casings as much as similar chemicals that go into cigarettes like lead, arsenic, formaldehyde, etc. I don't pipes and cigars are near as bad. The dude I mentioned that harvested his own used all natural flavors,and it was good.I mostly smoke English latakia blends.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Of course smoking and other types of tobacco use have health benefits. A lower population means more food to go around, hence better diet. More clean water available, hence fewer water-borne illness outbreaks. And have you seen how fast disease spreads in overcrowded conditions? Thin the herd a bit, and everyone gets to breathe cleaner air.

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. cosmicfolklore

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    Gotcha cigarbox, I was taking it out of context.

    You know, I set with a whole room full of pipe and cigar smokers occasionally, and they all site these types of studies as we all kick back and chain-smoke, “it’s good for me. I’ll live longer, and it’s good medicine.” Of course not all of us are this stupid silly, and you’d think that just noticing what happens to ourselves as we smoke that we’d all see the fact that it is NOT the healthiest thing we could be doing.
    However, I’ve been going to the gym four times a week, and it’s very tempting to get my BP up to workout level by smoking some Picayune instead of running for seven minutes on the elliptical machine.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    No problem Cosmic.

    I will add another layer to this. Stress is a killer. My dad has been surviving with cancer, autoimmune, heart disease, plus other things. He has done his homework thoroughly as far as treatment methods, which is interesting but does not belong on this thread. However, one thing he told me is that with all of it, especially his heart, stress will kill him so he does not let his mind worry or get stressed out, at least as much as he can. He did experience a great amount of stress in the fall, and some of his symptoms got worse. That stress was emotional meaning family worries. We all need to relax unarguably, and as far as health goes if you don't smoke, you probably are exposed to something or another. I won't go too far into that as to avoid opening up any worm cans.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. woodsroad

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    NPod, thank you for adding your professional insight. My father used to work on clinical trials and taught me to examine all of the variables and never assume anyone's conclusions or good intentions. While it is clear that the FDA is primarily motivated by politics, that alone does not discount the real evidence that smoking in any form carries health risks. Just what those risks are for pipe smokers and to what extent they will impact any given individual is unknown, in part due to the lack of research and published studies.

    As far as stress reduction is concerned, there are many ways to go. Most are unequivocally healthy, such as exercise, yoga, meditation, life coaching and psychotherapy. If you need to go the medication route, there are many, many anti-depression drugs with little to no side effects when properly prescribed by a competent diagnostician.

    Yet, smoking a pipe remains enjoyable and relaxing. One simply has to weight the risks and benefits and not try and fool yourself or blindly justify your behavior. Or let your obsessive-compulsive side get too stressed out about 5100.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. brightleaf

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    From Russek, H . I ., Statement, Hearings Before the House Committee on
    Interstate and Foreign Commerce, June 30, 1964

    "This study (of more than 12,000 persons in 14
    occupational groups) revealed that emotional stress
    appeared to be far more significant than heredity,
    dietary fat, tobacco, obesity or physical inactivity
    in the development of heart attacks."

    Everything has risks, we don't walk around wearing helmets, knee pads and bullet proof vests. We make choices and accept the responsibility for them.
    I disagree that exercise, yoga, meditation, life coaching and psychotherapy are unequivocally healthy. Exercise can damage your joints, yoga can over-stretch your ligaments, meditation can cause you to miss out on living your life and developing socially, life coaching can lead to bad advice and disavowing personal responsibility, psychotherapy can lead to over valued traumas and false repressed memories.

    POSSIBLY, contentment is not only the chief element of life, but also one of the very foundations of society. If this be so, then as Tobacco is the enemy of malice, friend of virtue, and a direct cause for content, its use should be encouraged. -J.W. Cundall 1901
    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. olkofri

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    Agree completely with brightleaf. Not only are some of those things not unequivocally healthy, but yoga and some forms of meditation can be spiritually deleterious. I don't wanna go into religion here, but I will remark that moderate tobacco smoking does not break any of the Decalogue statutes, whereas practising yoga breaks the very first one.

    Back to science, so much of it has been politicised to no end that it's become extremely hard to tell who's telling the truth and who isn't. I'm in the geosciences area, and I see this first hand every day: advocacy disguised as science being touted left and right, whilst the real science is swept aside and labeled 'denial'.

    Common sense left long ago.

    Not the sweet, new grass with flowers is this harvesting of mine;
    Not the upland clover bloom...
    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. brightleaf

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    Yoga has different definitions to different people. Yoga as practiced in the YMCA has no spiritual basis. And even to those who do study the spiritual side, the name is defined as being yoked to the divine, which isn't much different than what is thought to happen in prayer.
    Science is a tool, that can be used for biased reasons. I agree with you about that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Yeah, I don't think yoga pants have much to do with spirituality.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. sablebrush52

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    Agree completely with brightleaf. Not only are some of those things not unequivocally healthy, but yoga and some forms of meditation can be spiritually deleterious.

    Do anything wrong and it can mess you up. But "can" isn't the same as "will". After I was diagnosed with severe spinal stenosis, experiencing horrific unending pain from sciatica, after steroid injections failed to do diddly squat, I found myself facing spinal surgery. Going over the stats from Johns Hopkins regarding long term recovery through this surgery, about 35%, things were looking pretty grim.

    Then one of my students suggested yoga. My first thought was "bullshit!" But I figured what did I have to lose. So I found a class in restorative yoga. Not power or flow or anything really demanding, but yoga designed for people with injuries. I had not had a day without searing pain for nearly six months before I started taking yoga class, and the sciatica literally evaporated away after two weeks. That was 11 years ago and it has not returned, so long as I do my stretches daily. But, I know how to do them.

    My teacher was also a licensed physical therapist, as well as a highly ranked martial artist. She was a spark plug, short, a little plump, mid 40's, with more energy than people half her age and a thoroughly positive attitude.

    So I got the proper help and guidance for doing my set.

    Maybe some of us want to comfort ourselves in our bad behaviors by hiding in denial and by trashing other choices. Go ahead. Doesn't change a damned thing.

    I'll keep doing my stretching and resistance training. If I'd started doing this earlier in life I might not have had the issues I now contend with. But at least I have something that works.

    BTW, do you know what meditation essentially is? It's really simple. It's just focusing on your breathing.

    There's only one absolute in a human life, and that's the end of it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. cosmicfolklore

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    I do yoga for sciatica too, Jesse. But, I have been avoiding getting diagnosed with anything further.
    I've been going to the gym also, but it started with just escorting my wife. Now, I've lost more weight than her, and I'm enjoying lording it over her, ha ha. But yeh, anything can be dangerous, nothing is totally safe. Even a miracle antibiotic can be overdosed. Moderation. Of which, I am no good at when it comes to smoking my pipe.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. woodsroad

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    Hearings Before the House Committee on
    Interstate and Foreign Commerce, June 30, 1964

    1964 was a very long time ago.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. brightleaf

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    Emotions can still cause heart break.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. sablebrush52

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    Greasy chili can cause heartburn.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. npod

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    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/worlds-oldest-man-francisco-nunez-11937645

    Oldest documented man died last night at age 113. He drank wine daily and smoked for many years. He also walked daily and ate healthy veggies mainly.

    Point: Genetics play a huge role in health. We can only try our best to lead healthy lives.

    Remember, cigarettes and tobacco manufactured for nicotine delivery are bad. We all agree on that. But pipe tobacco and cigar tobacco (not vape, I consider that nicotine delivery) is a totally different topic. Pipes and cigars are more a lifestyle choice, some say "hobby". I always caution people against extrapolating cigarette data to pipe smoking. We all know emphysema from inhaled tobacco is real!

    From a medical prospective I believe the key is BALANCE and/or MODERATION. Enjoy the experience. But always be careful to not make it an addiction.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. woodsroad

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    Water consumption often leads to drowning.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. brightleaf

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    One of the things I dislike about the word healthy is the way it is used to manipulate people's choices. "Healthy" foods are usually served in smaller portions, cost more, contain less protein, fat and carbohydrates. Personally, I watch my calories. I need as many as I can get for every dollar I spend. I have lost over thirty pounds in the last year, while selecting the highest fat, highest calories foods I can afford. If I bought "healthy" foods I would've had less food by volume, less fat, less protein, and in my opinion less flavor. In other words I may well have starved to death...
    Back to pipe smoking.

    If I am prone to anger and normally have a short fuse
    Would not a pipe improve the health of my life?
    My relationships would be soothed, my emotions would be soothed, heck some may even mistakenly think I was nice.
    I know some claim smoking is selfish but that is their trip, some may say it is unhealthy but again, they are projecting their delusions on me. I do not blame others for the choices I make, I live the way the suits me best, and if my choices create the me I want to be, then I call it "Healthy."

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    You are conflating the effect of certain drugs and compounds with the act of smoking them.

    SB.. No I am not. I've said before that this is too complex of a subject to thoroughly discuss in a forum format. There is a large body of evidence that shows moderate smoking greatly reduces certain neurological diseases. It is not my intent to publish a dozen or so, only to be refuted by others because they find fault with the studies. While I'm at it, there is no study that conclusively shows moderate smoking causes cancer yet everyone seems to accept that as a proven fact. All we really have is "association" that smoking does or doesn't do something.

    I've already given a few suggestions as to how to search a medical data bank to find studies showing these benefits.

    The area of “research” and evidence based medicine is a complex specialty and highly debated even for specialists. In summary, there are essentially no proven overt health benefits to tobacco or nicotine, and the research would be tabled anyway.

    Npod, I have spent 30 years working for the government. I "test things" for the military. I am well aware of CI, confounding factors and how to set up a test in order to obtain unbiased data. By the logic that "there are no proven health benefits to tobacco" the same logic holds for the statement that there are no proven negative health effects from tobacco. We could argue this till the cows come home but I will not. I have better things to do in life. It is like arguing with someone about the Bible. You can basically pick and choose anything you want to justify your belief.

    ps.. as a Physician you might find the following book an interesting read. I have ordered it but not yet received it. Like any book that purports to show the health benefits of tobacco I will plan to spend a large amount of time verifying his references.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0128129220/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. npod

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    $74 ... yikes. Looks interesting though.

    In recent times most of the health benefit literature has centered on marijuana. I find it fascinating that the same people who bash tobacco science turn around and praise anything marijuana related. Science can be a double edged sword for sure.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. sablebrush52

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    SB.. No I am not. I've said before that this is too complex of a subject to thoroughly discuss in a forum format. There is a large body of evidence that shows moderate smoking greatly reduces certain neurological diseases.

    And once again you conflate the act of smoking with the suggested beneficial effect of certain compounds on humans. The same compounds can be introduced into the human body through other means. The benefit is about the compounds, not the method of delivery. A couple of years ago there was a British study that cited the health benefits of vaping as opposed to smoking because the heat caused by smoking is considered to play a role in the health risks involved.

    And if this is too complex a subject to introduce in a forum format, why introduce it? Conflation is not too complex a subject. It happens in as little as two words.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    And if this is too complex a subject to introduce in a forum format, why introduce it? Conflation is not too complex a subject. It happens in as little as two words.

    As I stated earlier, my intent was to show that there is evidence that smoking has health benefits. I posted a few articles showing such benefits. To conclusively prove my point would take considerably time. I'm not interested in proving my point, just to show there are actually studies showing benefits.

    Please point me to 1 study that specifically points out that the benefit is quantifiably related to introducing these drugs and compounds into the body by smoking them, as opposed to introducing these drugs and compounds thru other means

    Here is your 1 study. A large scale, long term study showing that the longer someone smokes the lower their risk of Parkinson's Disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2836869/

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. sablebrush52

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    As I stated earlier, my intent was to show that there is evidence that smoking has health benefits.

    Still conflating. Compounds in tobacco may have health benefits. Smoking isn't part of that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. prairiedruid

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    Smoking is a delivery system, the question maybe how safe of a delivery system is it compared to a pill or shot. Are there additional benefits of smoking as compared to pills/shots? And down the slope I go.....

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    molach95

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    I'd just like to add to the discussion on "health benefits" of tobacco in general: whenever I am severely congested and struggle to breathe through my nose I take nasal snuff, usually the menthol/medicated kind. I find that has the same effect as a kind of nasal spray, if not better, constricting the blood vessels and allowing me to breathe again. I only really take snuff when I have a cold or my hay fever is giving me trouble. It also helps to mask unpleasant smells, which comes in handy as I live in a rural area and my neighbour often puts manure and fertiliser on his fields.

    I was at a barbecue last year with some friends of friends and one guy was really struggling with a blocked nose and hayfever. I offered him some snuff and he was drunk enough to give it a try; he snorted it very hard despite me telling him to take it easy but he swore it actually worked really well and cleared his airway.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. deathmetal

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    Health benefits of tobacco:

    1. You're going to die anyway. 80% or more of this is your genetics.
    2. Tobacco improves cognition and relaxation.
    3. Not inhaling it really helps.

    So, smoke a bow(e)l and have a blast. Life is infinite, but lives are finite. Have all the Royal Yacht that you can.

    "My own experience has been that the tools I need for my trade are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey." -- William Faulkner

    The Metal Mixtures
    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. virginialover

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    Smoking tobacco in a pipe provides relaxation and also the feeling that you're not really alone. You can also relate to other pipe smokers and thanks to the internet you can share you thoughts and experiences. A win-win situation if you ask me!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. deathmetal

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    Health benefits of tobacco: you enjoy life more.

    Downside: you are less obedient.

    Hmm....

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. prairiedruid

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    Smoking tobacco in a pipe provides relaxation and also the feeling that you're not really alone

    Depends on the blend you are smoking.....if I fire up some Triple Play I guarantee I'll be alone for awhile. Sometimes that is a good thing!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. woodsroad

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  52. warren

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    The very idea of taking the by-products of incineration into your body could provide health benefits is ... well laughable. Then add that oxygen is replaced in the blood cells by these by-products, whether inhaled into the lungs or simply absorbed through the membranes in the mouth and nose, and well, only one conclusion can be arrived at.

    If taking carcinogens into the body were in any way healthy we would be advised to stand in the smoke of a camp fire, a burning pile of leaves or rubber tires, etc. and inhaling deeply. There is a reason firemen wear tanks and masks. Incinerating stuff, tobacco included, creates a whole menu of carcinogens.

    Parts of tobacco plants may indeed have some health benefits. But, burning tobacco? Not that I've seen proved. Always the opposite.

    Relaxation is a state of mind. If you think smoking relaxes you, it will. But, you can achieve the same state in many other, healthier, ways. So, admit you simply enjoy smoking and quit trying to justify it by reading all the conflicting studies and such. For some it is their one, wee, rebellious act and very satisfying in a warped sense. For every study one finds supporting any kind of health benefits to smoking, there's a dozen which will support the opposite view.

    Trying to rationalize what is a very selfish choice helps pass the time, I suppose. Better we simply take ownership of our, rather expensive and enjoyable vice.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. virginialover

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    warren: "Relaxation is a state of mind. If you think smoking relaxes you, it will."

    Agreed, the brain doesn't know any better. Nevertheless, the stages that bring that successful smoke are also important: the choice of your pipe, tobacco and the way you prepare it play into that relaxation. Is there anything worse for a pipe smoker than a failed smoke? And yes taking carcinogens into the body increases your risk for nasty stuff appearing later in your life. This is when genes, luck, initial health and personal balanced choices intervene.

    warren: "Trying to rationalize what is a very selfish choice helps pass the time, I suppose. Better we simply take ownership of our, rather expensive and enjoyable vice."

    Well said.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  54. deathmetal

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    Studies are relative to funding.

    Ergo, studies are not the whole story... and are often misleading.

    O look:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

    Posted 1 year ago #
  55. cosmicfolklore

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    Fom now on, I’m going to smoke my veggies. Maybe I can get a nice spinach / arugula blend going on, for... you know... iron and that sort of thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  56. brightleaf

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    Breaking the skin is harmful. So taking a medicine by injection is unhealthy.
    That's the logic I see sablebrush52 and warren using.
    jitterbugdude gave a study in his last post that gave the exact evidence asked for. It was for smoking, not taking nicotine by any other route.
    The argument that smoking is selfish is ridiculous. If helping people makes me feel good, it is selfish. If I feed myself it is selfish. If I read a book it is selfish. What can we do that isn't selfish? We are living creatures. Are dogs selfish? Perhaps if you were immortal and omnipotent you could do something unselfish. Walking around repeating negative self-talk about how selfish you are is a waste of time, and most likely more unhealthy than smoking tires.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  57. brian64

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    @brightleaf: I get the impression you are suffering from fluoride deficiency.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  58. brightleaf

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    I have well water so no fluoride from my drinking water. I do use fluoride toothpaste and occasionally use fluoride mouthwash (no dental insurance.) So it may be less than average, but I have some in my system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  59. warren

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    Breaking the skin is harmful? Always? I don't believe that for a minute. Much good can come from the breaking of someone's skin. A tracheotomy to save a life is a good thing. The lancing of a blister brings relief. A flu shot can be healthy. The rapid insertion of a piece of lead into a person can a bad or ...a good thing, dependent entirely on the surrounding circumstances.

    I take it, brightleaf, that you believe selfishness to be a bad thing. Far from it. A certain amount of self-catering is good for the soul. The self-satisfied, smugness of a person donating to something worthwhile is well earned. If such is performed only for the accolades, well that is selfish and the resulting good is laudable. Smoking, akin to an extra dollop of chocolate sauce on a scoop of ice cream, is purely self-serving.

    Smoking is a purely selfish choice as it does no one else any benefit. Well, it does enrich the purveyors of tobacco products. Smoking is an adult choice to be made after considering the negative and the possible benefits, weighing the risks, as it were, against the gains. The only reason I know of to turn to tobacco is, "I like it!" Purely a selfish choice which flies in the face of logic and some good science. Selfish decisions often do.

    Smoking costs people moneys. Many smokers really cannot afford such as it adversely affects family. Smokers reek. I'm trying to think of a positive aspect to tobacco products which are smoked. Their homes reek to the noses of nonsmokers and are therefore devalued. A smoker selling a car which smells of stale smoke will not realize full value.

    The only positive I can come up with is, "I like it." Purely self-serving which is not necessarily a bad thing.

    Now, even with my newly diagnosed heart problem, certainly somewhat attributable to a lifetime of smoking, I am enjoying a pipe full of Elizabethan. "Why?" You ask incredulously.

    "Because I like it and I'm not yet ready to give it up." Stupidly selfish, exhibiting a total lack of consideration for my new grandson, family and others who will, possibly soon, be deprived of my humor, knowledge, and whatever else good they might possibly see in me.

    You can come with all sorts of justifications for poor decisions. That doesn't change the fact that it is a decision a wiser or, perhaps more self-controlled would make.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  60. mso489

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    The array of pharmacy they give people for depression, anxiety, etc., with all kinds of side effects makes me wonder if a "low dose" of pipe tobacco might help with fewer or no side effects. I got back to pipe smoking when taking time to center myself and re-focus, during a family health crisis, alcohol just didn't work, contributed to fatigue, inhibited early rising, etc., and a pipe bowl was just the ticket, a way to get settled at the end of the evening after focusing totally on someone and something else. Part of the reckoning is, what's the alternative?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  61. cosmicfolklore

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    I like smugness, smug and smog. Gimme gimme.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  62. weezell

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    Better we simply take ownership of our, rather expensive and enjoyable vice."
    Pretty much sums it up for me. Good call Warren...

    "the weez"...
    Posted 1 year ago #
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    jitterbugdude

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    Still conflating. Compounds in tobacco may have health benefits. Smoking isn't part of that.

    Explain that to me!
    You wanted 1 study ( there are many). I gave you 1 study. That study showed that SMOKING DECREASES PARKINSONS DISEASE based on length of time smoked. I also pointed out that the alkaloids in tobacco smoke inhibit the enzyme that destroys the dopamine receptors in the brain. So tell my why smoking is not part of that?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  64. brightleaf

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    Warren,
    You may think you use terms like selfish and vice in a way that isn't moralizing but it comes off like that.
    I say keep you self-flagellating private. I don't want your riding crop near me.

    It also sounds like you agree that some negative side effects are acceptable, yet you act like smoking is all bad. There is scientific evidence presented in this thread that shows many benefits to smoking.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  65. 5star

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    mso489 - “ The array of pharmacy they give people for depression, anxiety, etc., with all kinds of side effects makes me wonder if a "low dose" of pipe tobacco might help with fewer or no side effects. I got back to pipe smoking when taking time to center myself and re-focus, during a family health crisis, alcohol just didn't work, contributed to fatigue, inhibited early rising, etc., and a pipe bowl was just the ticket, a way to get settled at the end of the evening after focusing totally on someone and something else. Part of the reckoning is, what's the alternative? “

    Within the last few years a US government agency (NIH, CDC, or some such) released the results of a study that they did on the health impact of cigar smoking. They found zero impact for modest cigar smokers. ‘Modest’ was defined as one cigar per day. They didn’t run the study for amounts of cigars greater than this. The wording of the release of their findings was rather amusing as its author seemed perturbed that it turned out as it did.

    No, cigars aren’t pipes. But they definitely aren’t cigarettes either. By the definition of the study mentioned, I am no more than a ‘modest’ cigar & pipe smoker. (Much less recently because of a case of the flu I picked up at Christmas that has put a moratorium on all my smoking for over a month.) In any case, one has to do their own research & decide for themselves. I personally gain more in calmness of mind from my pipe smoking than any detrimental effects I have experienced or read about.

    - Mac

    "You are remembered for the rules you break." - General Douglas MacArthur
    Posted 1 year ago #
  66. warren

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    I happen to believe that a bit of selfishness is good for one's mental well being. I won't begrudge a person some self-absorbed behavior. Pick any of the above synomyms, they aptly describe the decision to smoke.

    You are certainly free to ascribe any interpretation you wish to my posts. As, I am free to post them where I think them germane to a discussion. If you wish to stifle my posts, I suggest you take a position as a mod should you be offered such. Then you may feel free close/remove any post you find in conflict with the posted rules. Barring that, take it up with a mod or Kevin.

    I haven't simply haven't found creditable evidence which shows any beneficial aspects to smoking incinerated materials which outweigh the fact that you are taking known carcinogens into the blood stream. But, that's my weighing the risks v. the benefits.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  67. deathmetal

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    I happen to believe that a bit of selfishness is good for one's mental well being.

    I see a value in being aggressively self-interested, but this is different than individualism (me first before all else) or selfishness (me first at the expense of others with legitimate claim to those resources).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  68. warren

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    Metal makes a distinction which may be without a difference but, I understand it completely. Selfishness has a bad connotation. So, perhaps I should select another adjective. Self-indulgent? Perhaps. I simply see catering to one's self as not all bad unless every decision is based on, "It's all about what I want." Such is taking the behavior to an extreme which may be harmful to one's self and/or others. But, smoking can only be a self-indulgent (better adjective?) decision as it benefits no one else but the smoker. (I'm not buying the old "it improves me as a person", "makes me smarter", "I'm nicer to be around", etc. justifications.)

    Unrequired "risky" behavior is simply self-indulgent. Nothing wrong with that in moderation, I believe, if the risks have been adequately weighed.

    This discussion is very circular, I thank each and every participant, as I've enjoyed the banter and it keeps my mind off other, more serious facets of my life at this time. Sable and some others are able to simply state a position/observation and leave off. For some reason I feel the urge to keep beating the horse.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  69. cosmicfolklore

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    It's like when we talk about addiction, everyone ju7st assumes that addiction is bad. And, they think that because they can quit for a few weeks or a month or so that they aren't addicted. "I can quit anytime." But, they never do. It's not quitting if you come back to it.
    But ultimately, my argument would be that addiction, by itself as a behavior is not bad. I just admit it. I'm addicted. I may not start vomiting from withdrawal, but my kids definitely know to avoid me if I am having to temporarily quit or skip a day smoking.
    But, as I always say, if you don't want to say your addicted, then don't. But, in my mind, I know...

    And, if someone truly quits, then you can just go ahead and dump your tobacco and burn the pipes. Because you'll never need them again, right?

    Addicted, healthy, selfishness; people find it very hard to shake their own self-imposed connotations.

    As to the OP, I just don't think taking a bunch of research that can be found online to my doctor is going to do anything but make me look like a lunatic. And, fooling myself into thinking that smoking my pipe is a healthy behavior will have no positive outcome... for me. I just treat it like one of the many unhealthy behaviors that we have to deal with throughout our day, and take responsibility for my own actions. Proceed with care and intelligence.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  70. deathmetal

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    I simply see catering to one's self as not all bad unless every decision is based on, "It's all about what I want."

    That's a good point. I might add a brief change:


    I simply see catering to one's self as not all bad unless every decision is based solely on, "It's all about what I want."

    Most of the stuff I want benefits others as well.


    But, smoking can only be a self-indulgent (better adjective?) decision as it benefits no one else but the smoker.

    And the farmers, blenders, B&M staff and so on. But there's another dimension: every lifestyle choice represents the exclusion of others at least to a certain degree. Would you rather have people smoking, or eating the buffet at Souper Salad?

    These are serious questions that must be approached with the utmost gravity, of course. And if the horse is fresh, you have tenderized "brisket" which is a good enough excuse to break out the keg, rifles, airhorns, and fireworks in order to have a little party.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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