Pipes Magazine » Pipe Talk » British Pipes

Search Forums  
   
Tags:  No tags yet. 

Fraudulent Comoy Blue Riband eBay listing

(78 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by zulucollector
  • Latest reply from daveinlax
  1. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Heads up: There is a fraudulent listing for a Comoy Blue Riband Shape 110 on eBay now. There are several tells:
    1. Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband.
    2. Shape 110 is a cutty, not a billiard.
    3. Close inspection reveals that the nomenclature was photoshopped. None of the wood grain runs through.

    The seller does not accept returns and says he doesn't know much about pipes. Obviously, he knows enough to try and pull this off.

    I've contacted him and given him 8 hours to pull the listing or I go to eBay with a report.

    I'm letting you know because there are bidders already on this auction.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Photoshopped stamping!? The Bad Guys are upping their game.

    It would be funny if it wasn't, you know, NOT funny.

    Dogs live such short lives... and spend most it waiting for us to come home
    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Unfortunately, it appears I caught this late. The auction is over in a couple of hours.

    The guy messaged me back saying he was going to report me to eBay for bad manners for implying his auction was fraudulent. He let me know he is a person of high integrity.

    Obviously, his integrity is not high enough for him to worry first and foremost that he is selling a fake object at auction.

    I went ahead and reported the listing as fraudulent, but who knows whether eBay will get to it in a timely manner.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    OK, this is getting weird. The "Blue Riband" line of the stamp does look suspiciously lighter, like it's an overlay, but that could be a lighting thing:

    .

    And it appears Comoy's did produce at least a few billiards that were given the shape number 110:

    http://estatepipes.co.uk/shop/Comoys-Deluxe-Straight-Grain-1930s-Billiard-1240

    https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=109973

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. zack24

    zack24

    Mod
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 1,756

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Be very careful on this one- I spent years retouching professionally in Photoshop for one of the top pre-press companies in the country. This looks like a pixelated image, not a photoshopped logo on top of another picture. A giveaway would be if one were pixelated and the merged logo sharp...but these both appear to be the same. I would not say it's a fake based strictly on the image I see. The other two issues, I can't comment on...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. lazar

    lazar

    Senior Member
    Joined: May 2015
    Posts: 458

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Nothing looks photoshopped to me, and the guy has 718 positive feedbacks (100%). Perhaps he's actually being honest, admitting he knows nothing about pipes and describing it to the best of his ability.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. samcoffeeman

    samcoffeeman

    Senior Member
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 451

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Tough to tell from the poor images. I have seen a few post-Cadogan Blue Ribands with less than stellar grain. It is possible this is one of those, if it's not a 3 piece C.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. User has not uploaded an avatar

    achtman

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 31

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    According to Neil Archer’s shape list, the 110 is a billiard.

    The one thing I see is that the Blue Riband logo seems to float above the pipe in the photo rather than being embedded. If I were trying to sell a pipe frsudulently, I wouldn’t choose one that is in this lousy unrestored condition.Maybe he has augmented the Blue Riband nomenclature because it was difficult to photograph.

    Mark

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Looks legit to me.............. How can one claim that " Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband." with such certainty?
    Comoy's made a BUNCH of pipes............

    "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream..."
    Willy Wonka
    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. cynicismandsugar

    Jeffrey Deal

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 773

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    +1 @zack24

    I've also spent years working with photo editing and photo editing software (as both a graphic designer, and later photographer), and I agree with Zack's assessment of the image.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    How can one claim that " Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband." with such certainty?

    Because Neill literally wrote the book on the subject. He's one of---if not THE---top Blue Riband collector/historians in the world.

    That doesn't mean he's right 100% of the time, of course, but pretty close to it.

    https://www.smokingpipes.com/accessories/books/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=152341

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. pitchfork

    pitchfork

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 3,977

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I thought 'zulucollector' WAS Neil Archer Roan. Maybe not?

    Photo looks legit to me.

    EDIT: Just saw georged's post.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. dochudson

    dochudson

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 1,722

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    What are the sellers options if someone purposely screws over a sale?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Because Neil literally wrote the book on the subject

    So that means that he's seen and inspected every Blue Riband EVER produced in Comoy's history?......... "NEVER" is a strong word. I'm not buying it........

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. cynicismandsugar

    Jeffrey Deal

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 773

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    ... I should add that a similar effect might be achieved by resizing the layers, color mapping, saving down (the individual layers) at a similar dpi, warping, blah, blah, blah, blah... but I don't believe anything has been done to the particular image provided.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM


    So that means that he's seen and inspected every Blue Riband EVER produced in Comoy's history?

    Of course not.

    You asked how someone could make a statement about a subject with a high level of certainty. Well, studying it for thousands of hours and talking to everyone still alive who was significantly connected to the Comoy's company in its glory days is how.

    Whether or not a mistake was made in this instance is an entirely separate issue.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. zack24

    zack24

    Mod
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 1,756

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    If your background ever included retouching images from a Crossfield scanner back in the early days when a Mac retouching station cost $50k...and the 40meg RAM disk attached to it cost another $40k ...you know what I’m talking about..

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    It looks correct to me, but I wouldn't buy it. The grain is basically what one would expect on a Tradition. For its condition, I'd say it's already overpriced at the current bid, GBP 83/$115.

    Dave
    Duke Street Irregular
    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Whether or not a mistake was made is an entirely separate issue.

    And therein lies the rub.......... That's exactly how facts get distorted. Maybe Neil should have stated "I have never seen a cross grained Blue Riband", instead "They NEVER made one." A quick google search turns up several 110 billiards also.

    Accusing a a guy of (intentionally) selling fake pipes is not right either, look at his other pipes for sale. Looks to me like the chap stumbled onto some pipes at an estate sale and is trying to sell them. He states he knows nothing about pipes.

    I'm not trying to start something here, and I'm well aware of Neil's acumen, but accuracy is something that I take seriously......

    EDIT- OK George, I see you bolded the "HOW"..... maybe I should have used the word "why"...... my bad.....

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. cigrmaster

    cigrmaster

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 13,875

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    pitchfork, zulucollector is Neill. I would take his word about anything to do with Blue Ribands.

    Harris
    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

    The Bard Of Barlings
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 9,784

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The seller does not accept returns

    This alone is enough for me to avoid bidding. I don't care how good you think you images are, nothing beats having the pipe in hand to inspect. It saves the headache of having to go through eBay's resolution procedures, if you need to deal with a recalcitrant seller, as "no return" policies are voided if the item is not as described.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. upnorth1

    upnorth1

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2017
    Posts: 504

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The stamping doesn't look photospped to me either. I have 20 years pro experience in photoshop and photo work.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    John Adler (former president of Comoy) told me that there was no such thing as a cross grain Blue Riband. I specifically asked him with respect to a clarification of brand guidelines. That's how I know.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    By the way, I think had a grand mal seizure with respect to the 110 shape number. It was originally introduced as a cutty then later reassigned to a billiard. I own both shapes.

    It was my mistake.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Here is just one image of a Comoy Blue Riband stamp when photographed. (I could post tens of these if people want to see them). Notice that the light and color across the stamp are consistent. You don't see changes of light direction or refraction. Luminosity is consistent. In some places, the grain differentials are visible, but not everywhere.

    Like some of the posters above, I have decades of experience with Photoshop. Putting the stamp on a photo is not difficult, but it is nearly impossible to keep luminosity consistent when photoshopping without a lot more work than is worth it. The image of the 110 on eBay does not have consistent luminosity across the stamp.

    Maybe the image of the pipe for sale is unretouched, but it looks wrong to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. balkisobrains

    balkisobrains

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 1,512

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Looking at this through a "sold listings" search, it looks like the photos were taken outside during a snow-fall, so lighting might look weird. At first, I though it was under a high-blue fluorescent tube until I saw the snowflakes. To me, it looks like a legit photo taken under odd lighting conditions with a lower-quality digi-cam, and then the quality was probably further degraded when hosted by Ebay. But, it sounds like there is still the question of the existence a cross-grain Blue Riband, so who knows? Not me!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    We'll get to see for sure in a week or so............ I bought the pipe.

    I've also had several email exchanges with Jon, the seller. He bought this in Bridgnorth, Shropshire, at an auction. It was in a box with a teapot that he wanted. He kept the teapot, and listed this one and the other pipes. He said he's no photographer, a gardener actually............ nice fellow, and honest as the day is long.

    I'm looking forward to this one....................

    I wouldn't put 100% faith in the accuracy of what any president of any company tells you. That would be like the current president of Ford Motor Co. saying Ford NEVER made a brown car with red leather seats and a white steering wheel. Too many years, and too many units out the door, impossible to account for every single one........... Just my 2 cents......

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    To me, it looks like a legit photo taken under odd lighting conditions with a lower-quality digi-cam,

    That's exactly it.

    Here's a direct quote from his email:

    " i've got a little Samsung 120 camera on which the zoom doesn't work to well so just point and press. It seems that instead of being a gardener for the local authority, i missed my vocation in life as a special effects photographer!
    Thank you for your comments on there, your exactly right i bought them all together at a local general auction in Bridgnorth (rural market town) in a box with a teapot i wanted for a Christmas present.
    Have a happy Christmas, best wishes Jon."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. danielplainview

    dave g

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 2,940

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Make aromatics great again.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. alan73

    alan73

    Senior Member
    Joined: Apr 2017
    Posts: 461

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    ^

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I wouldn't put 100% faith in the accuracy of what any president of any company tells you. That would be like the current president of Ford Motor Co. saying Ford NEVER made a brown car with red leather seats and a white steering wheel. Too many years, and too many units out the door, impossible to account for every single one.

    That's probably the situation here.

    The highest level people have the most credibility in their recollection of historical events and "how things were done," but the information they were EXPOSED TO was often filtered and/or modified BECAUSE of their high position. (The staff of VIP's try to protect them from too much information, as well as gain personal favor by being associated only with good news. It's a well-known phenomenon.)

    In any event, we'll all soon know for sure, because bovineconsumer33 bought the pipe in question.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. woodsroad

    woodsroad

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 8,497

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I'm in late here, but I'll concur on what others are saying about no photochopping and the lighting. You all know my creds. Been a full-time photographer since 1985. My guess is that this pipe turns out to be 100% correct.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me try and explain yet again.

    1. Blue Ribands were never made. They were selected from frased stummels in a sorting process after they had been made. They were selected according to qualitative criteria, principally that they had a straight, vertical grain orientation with good to outstanding grain. Adler said that the pipes were always "straight-grained or very good flame-grain." (from the interview transcript) It was the full-time job of those who sorted to determine which stummels went to which factories. Different lines were done in different factories. "Better bowls get put to one side. Certain workmen got the highest quality bowls. Bowls were turned in different factories than finishing."
    2. The stummels were then shipped to the Rosebery "top-quality finishing shop" (quote: Adler interview) for finishing and stemming. Blue Ribands were given a contrast stain.
    3. After having been inspected AGAIN for finish quality, they were stamped, post-finish, put in a Blue Riband sock and box, and then shipped. Adler said that the reason they were inspected after finishing is that the sanding and finishing process often surfaced flaws which would cause the pipes to be rejected. Final inspection was done by the Rosebery plant supervisor. That's how seriously Comoy took this process.

    These pipes were in very high demand by collectors. Adler told me they could never produce enough of them, and that over time, declining briar quality forced the elimination of the line. Can you imagine the upset Comoy's factory and/or reps (and dealers) would encounter were they to ship out a Blue Riband with the wrong grain orientation, not to mention low-quality grain orientation? The people who bought these pipes knew what they were buying. Comoy didn't play games like that. It is one thing to have a low quality vertically-oriented grain pipe slip through. It is altogether something different to have a poor quality cross grain be selected in the sorting process. It simply won't happen, especially given the secondary, post-finish inspection.

    Adler spoke about how important it was to Comoy to "retain high-quality, skilled people in the places they were." The best toolmakers were at Aldershot. The best finishers were at Rosebery.

    Could someone have stamped the pipe with a Blue Riband stamp? It is possible. We know that this happened at the Dunhill factory and that Bill Ashton-Taylor actually counterfeited Dunhills. Stamping a pipe does not make it something it is not when that action contravenes Comoy policy. And, as Adler explained, there were fool-proof policies in place to ensure quality.

    Finally, these were small companies. John Adler was not some elevated, removed executive with no knowledge of production. He could name the brands, and types of machines used on the factory floors, the processes, all of it. To suggest otherwise it pure balderdash.

    You can put a Corvette badge on a Camaro, but that doesn't make it a Corvette.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,645

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Comoys would be the only company I have heard of, employing humans, to have achieved total perfection in production. I am indeed impressed! A totally error free work place! Incredible. Unbelievable! In truth, I don't believe it.

    I would believe the pipe is authentic before I would believe in perfection in production in any business. Certainly something to strive for, with the caveat that such is impossible.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. ssjones

    ssjones

    Mod
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 14,579

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    An interesting thread. At least we'll be able to see the new owners photographs and opinion on the pipe, that rarely happens in these cases. That grain sure does look like a Tradition (as one of the Dave's commented)

    Neill, did you ever get an opportunity to speak to anyone on the factory floor? I'm guessing some of those fellows (or ladies) might still be around, if a worker was in their 30's in the 1960's. Do we know what happened to the factory Blue Riband stamps? Were they a one-piece stamp or individual letters? I assume all the grades would have been one-piece, but I've never seen any reference to those stamps. Those would be priceless! (although no one would be able to replicate the 3 piece C to the factory specs).

    Al

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Very interesting post Neill. Just out of curiosity, if you have an idea, how many people worked for Comoy's? We hear "factory pipes", and people start thinking Ford Motor Company, or General Motors, but I get the sense that these companies, Comoy's, Dunhill, Barling's, etc were relatively small.

    Comoy's factory on Rosebery Avenue, London. "Nos 72–82 were home for more than 50 years from 1913 to H. Comoy & Co., briar-pipe manufacturers."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    And just for fun, the Roseberry was also a sub-brand of Comoy's during the pre-war era.


    The 342 shape, although note, not marked with the shape number.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. pitchfork

    pitchfork

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 3,977

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Wait, so now the argument is that the image of the pipe was NOT altered -- only that the pipe itself doesn't actually exist (because Adler)?

    Got it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Wait, so now the argument is that the image of the pipe was NOT altered -- only that the pipe itself doesn't actually exist (because Adler)?

    Well, the pipe obviously exists. Whether it fell through the usual QC standards Neill describes is another question...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. pitchfork

    pitchfork

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 3,977

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Well, the pipe obviously exists. Whether it fell through the usual QC standards Neill describes is another question...

    Ah, good point. I think Warren might have mentioned something along those lines earlier. (Sorry folks, I'm a little slow on the uptake.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. woodsroad

    woodsroad

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 8,497

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    So, let's go back to the top and revisit the allegations made here, and on Facebook:

    1. Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband.

    They made the pipe. Whether it actually met all of their stated grading standards before leaving the factory or not is irrelevant. It may make the pipe even more interesting/valuable, like an upside down Jenny. The one that got away.

    2. Shape 110 is a cutty, not a billiard.

    110 is the correct nomenclature

    3. Close inspection reveals that the nomenclature was photoshopped. None of the wood grain runs through.

    No photochopping.

    Now there's the insinuation/hint/suggestion/allusion/inference that counterfeiting, perhaps decades ago, might be involved, as opposed to the fraud on the part of the seller, which was the original allegation. If I was the eBay seller, I'd be pretty pissed about all of this, and might seek the advice of my lawyer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. joeman

    joeman

    Senior Member
    Joined: Mar 2016
    Posts: 300

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Neil, based on the standard of straight (or bare minimum, very good flame) vertical grain, would these other very recent Blue Riband auctions also be deemed fakes?

    Blue Riband 1

    Blue Riband 2

    JoeMan
    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Joe, I would say both your examples fall well within the parameters of the type of grain one sees on Blue Ribands, That being said, there were some that had better grain than others.




    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    JoeMan, while it isn't a great specimen, it does have vertical orientation. It is not a cross grain, which was used in the Tradition line. It is also a fairly late pipe, as evidenced by the shape number. These higher numbers were introduced later in the production.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. zulucollector

    zulucollector

    New Member
    Joined: Nov 2013
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Woodsroad:

    So, let's go back to the top and revisit the allegations made here, and on Facebook:

    1. Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband.

    HAVE YOU SEEN THE PIPE? WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT COMOY MADE THE PIPE? THE EVIDENCE IS TO THE CONTRARY. ALL COMOY PUBLICATIONS, MARKETING, AND DOCUMENTATION WOULD SUGGEST THAT THEY DID NOT. IF THEY DID MAKE THE PIPE, IT CLEARLY IS NOT A BLUE RIBAND.

    They made the pipe. Whether it actually met all of their stated grading standards before leaving the factory or not is irrelevant. It may make the pipe even more interesting/valuable, like an upside down Jenny. The one that got away.

    THIS IS A VALID POINT. COUNTERFEIT DUNHILLS ARE WORTH MORE THAN ORIGINALS IN SOME CASES (ACCORDING TO JOHN LORING).

    2. Shape 110 is a cutty, not a billiard.

    110 is the correct nomenclature

    THE ORIGINAL DESIGNATION OF 110 WAS A CUTTY. IF YOU WANT A PICTURE FROM THE CATALOG SHOWING THE SHAPE NUMBER, I'M HAPPY TO POST IT. IT WAS LATER REDESIGNATED.

    3. Close inspection reveals that the nomenclature was photoshopped. None of the wood grain runs through.

    No photochopping.

    THIS MAY BE TRUE. IT MAY NOT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE PIPE, AND NEITHER HAVE YOU.

    Now there's the insinuation/hint/suggestion/allusion/inference that counterfeiting, perhaps decades ago, might be involved, as opposed to the fraud on the part of the seller, which was the original allegation. If I was the eBay seller, I'd be pretty pissed about all of this, and might seek the advice of my lawyer.

    I'M SURE YOU WOULD.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,645

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Stating absolutes based on photos is absurd. I say this as a one-time court recognized expert on photography in the State of Alaska. Cameras/lenses can only faithfully record what they can resolve and they distort perspective. Add lighting, the subject itself, manipulation (this was before digital made manipulation easier), perspective, lens distortion, intent, etc. and a photo is only a photo, a representation of what the equipment could capture and the photographer/editor, intended to present.

    Witness this thread. in which manipulation is a given to some and not to other experts in photo manipulation. It's easy to build a case in either direction, honestly and diligently. This is why for every expert in a court case there is an equally imposing and informed expert taking the other side.

    My position is the original photo is an honest representation of the pipe. I take this position simply because manipulation wouldn't be economical for the seller.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. kcghost

    kcghost

    Preferred Member
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 2,385

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Okay, it comes down to who are you going to believe. You can go with the eBay seller with a no returns policy or Neil Roan the man who wrote the book on Blue Ribands. You guys are always giving eBay sellers more crap than anybody and now you are giving this guy a pass?? Sure Neil might be mistaken but how easily can a guy with no knowledge of pipes be fooled. One thing that really tips me in Neil's favor is the guy's reaction. I mean really who makes a "I'll tell my lawyer" over an item he knows nothing about. Yeah, I am sure he'll have lawyers lining up for miles when he tells them he wants to sue an acknowledged authority in the field over an item worth a few hundred dollars.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. woodsroad

    woodsroad

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 8,497

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Neill, you are absolutely correct, I have not seen this pipe. And I have to concur with Warren that basing strong opinion or stating facts based on photos (and marginal photos at that) is not advisable. So I'll suspend judgement until the pipe arrives.

    I'd still be pissed, if I was the seller.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

    The Bard Of Barlings
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 9,784

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The pipe is going to show up on Beefeater33's doorstep and it will either have a "Blue Riband" stamp on it or it will not. If not, the "no refunds" policy is voided and eBay takes care of it.

    As far as image manipulation goes, my creds are as good as anyone here and better than most all of you. As a professional matte painter, visual effects supervisor, photographer, Photoshop beta tester, and "Photoshop Guru" for Adobe back when it was still just a bulletin board, I've probably used that damned package to screw with images in more ways than any of you. Bottom line is you can't make any judgements worth spit from a digitized image. Anything can be seamlessly faked down to a pixel by pixel level if you want to take all that time to do it. So where would be the pay off in this instance?

    As for the rest of this, I'm not an expert on Comoy or Blue Ribands. I am an expert on fucking up as I have a lifetime of doing that, so the possibility of an error in their process doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility, or that someone at the factory applied the wrong stamp, or stamped a lesser pipe to sell in a back alley at midnight. Charatan and Dunhill both leaked stock. They probably all did.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Ah, the Internet...

    Dear KevinBoard --

    What's significant about this thread in my view has nothing to do with a particular situation or a particular pipe, but rather that Neill has paid us a visit, and, I imagine, if he finds the experience useful, interesting, and PLEASANT that he'll do it again.

    Imagine it's 1975, this is a forum for actors, and Richard Burton dropped by. It's like that.

    Nothing more should need to be said.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 2,945

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Just out of curiosity, if you have an idea, how many people worked for Comoy's? We hear "factory pipes", and people start thinking Ford Motor Company, or General Motors, but I get the sense that these companies, Comoy's, Dunhill, Barling's, etc were relatively small.

    Still looking for an answer to this question, if anybody here knows.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  52. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,645

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    It wouldn't be suit over a pipe. Livelihood, veracity, damages, etc as a reputation has been publicly impugned. It's way beyond the pipe as far as the seller would be concerned. It's the kind of suit many attorneys would love to present.

    "zulucollector" is treading on very marshy ground by not keeping this strictly between the agents (eBay), the seller and himself. Should a "deep pocket" be found, attorneys could be pounding on the doors. Yacht maintenance, live on grounds gardeners, fuel for the corporate jet, etc require an endless parade of aggrieved persons to support.

    And, unless Comoys examined all employees as diamond mining companies examine the miners at shifts end, they'd really have no idea about what was going out the door.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. cynicismandsugar

    Jeffrey Deal

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 773

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    [sigh] This is why we can't have nice post. Back to lurking in the shadows! [whoosh!]

    Posted 1 year ago #
  54. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

    The Bard Of Barlings
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 9,784

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Ah, the Internet...

    Dear KevinBoard --

    What's significant about this thread in my view has nothing to do with a particular situation or a particular pipe, but rather that Neill has paid us a visit, and, I imagine, if he finds the experience useful, interesting, and PLEASANT that he'll do it again.

    Imagine it's 1975, this is a forum for actors, and Richard Burton dropped by. It's like that.

    Nothing more should need to be said.

    Absolutely! Great to see Neill here! I already learned a lot of interesting stuff from him in this thread.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  55. woodsroad

    woodsroad

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 8,497

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Jesse, I base my opinion of no chopping on the assumption that an individual who would possess your PS skill level, with 100% feedback on 712 ebay sales isn't trying to defraud someone of $115.86.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  56. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Lets take it easy folks.......... The pipe will arrive soon enough.
    There won't be any lawyers involved, the seller didn't even bring that up. I have had several email exchanges with Jon, the seller. Its telling to go to the auction page, and read his description.......
    here it is:

    "Firstly i know nothing about vintage pipes other than from looking on the internet so please ask any questions and i'll get back to you as soon as i can
    I bought several similar pipes at a local auction along with various other smoking related items so i'll list them as time allows
    I believe this to be a Comoy's Blue Riband by the stamp on the side, also says made in London England 110 on the other side
    To me it looks to be in fair used condition, with no cracks that i can find
    I haven't cleaned it in any way as best done properly
    Please ask any questions, happy to combine postage"

    He had several pipes for sale, all with similar wording in the listings. He was trying to recoup some $$ from the box he bought at auction..... which contained a teapot that he wanted for Christmas.........

    Posted 1 year ago #
  57. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,645

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    It is an education. I appreciate that and am in awe of his knowledge with regard to Comoy. I sincerely hope I and some others do not run him off.

    That said, I just wish he'd led off with, "In my experience..." or "Based on my knowledge ..." and left out the personal attack. I'd think he'd be on firmer ground. It's understandable and admirable that he wished to warn people off the sale based on his knowledge.

    His credentials appear impeccable with regard to the pipe/Comoy. With regard to the assaulting seller's integrity based on an eBay sale and some computer correspondence? Not so much.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  58. bluegrassbrian

    bluegrassbrian

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2016
    Posts: 1,826

    online

    Login to Send PM

    I'm just here for the History lessons.

    I knew there was a "christian pipe smoker" contingent, but never realized the prevalence of "photog-pipers".

    Tobacco's a help because it clears the mind
    But like all your friends it is vilified
    They always say, the right amount's fine
    Posted 1 year ago #
  59. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

    The Bard Of Barlings
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 9,784

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Jesse, I base my opinion of no chopping on the assumption that an individual who would possess your PS skill level, with 100% feedback on 712 ebay sales isn't trying to defraud someone of $115.86.

    You're probably correct. I deliberately didn't weigh in with an opinion regarding PhotoShopping of the image. As I wrote, where would the payoff be in all that effort? There is none.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  60. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    ...never realized the prevalence of "photog-pipers".

    It's a common overlap. Reason unknown.

    Knives, whiskey, fountain pens, beards, pipes, photography, gold bullion bricks, supermodel girlfriends, Ferrari supercars... they just seem to go together.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  61. warren

    warren

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 7,645

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    A very astute observation georged.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  62. bluegrassbrian

    bluegrassbrian

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Aug 2016
    Posts: 1,826

    online

    Login to Send PM

    I've got the knives, pipes, and supermodel girlfriend.

    I wouldn't mind some gold bricks.. or a Blue Riband for that matter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  63. zack24

    zack24

    Mod
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 1,756

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Knives, whiskey, fountain pens, beards, pipes, photography, gold bullion bricks, supermodel girlfriends, Ferrari supercars... they just seem to go together.

    Ditto on all the above...except the beard...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  64. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    Ditto on all the above...except the beard...

    ALL the above?!

    Yikes

    (Does Greta know?)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  65. ssjones

    ssjones

    Mod
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 14,579

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I still have yet to add a Blue Riband to my collection. I prefer bents and those are a bit elusive. I ALMOST took a shot at this one, but ultimately forgot about the auction ending and missed it.

    I questioned the roundness of the chamber, from the picture below. The seller claimed it bought it unsmoked and only used it lightly. He did offer returns, so I was going to take the chance, fell asleep at the wheel. I really thought it would go higher, so perhaps the other buyers felt the same with with the bowl issue. The grain on this one is really less than stellar.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Comoys-of-London-BLUE-RIBAND-bent-billiard-shape-215-briar-estate-pipe/332473240223?hash=item4d68f30a9f:g:HusAAOSwnDpaJaYY

    Posted 1 year ago #
  66. woodsroad

    woodsroad

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 8,497

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I did have a beard for a while.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  67. beefeater33

    beefeater33

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 2,584

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The Blue Riband that Comoy's NEVER made arrived today. Looks legit to me, the pipe has incredibly tight, "angel hair" grain in spots............ really beautiful viewed through a 10x loupe.
    I snapped some quick shots on my way out the door to work today, sorry about the quality.............

    I guess the lesson learned here is "Never say Never"......................

    Posted 1 year ago #
  68. tslex

    tslex

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 1,529

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    The three-part "C" looks right in that first photo. At least to my admittedly amateur eye.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  69. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

    The Bard Of Barlings
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 9,784

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    I'm glad to know that it isn't just Barling that output anomalous pipes. Some of their "straight grain" stamped pipes have almost no straight grain on them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  70. georged

    georged

    Preferred Member
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 2,636

    offline

    Login to Send PM

    When humans are involved, mistakes will happen.

    In this case a not-Blue-Riband-worthy bowl got tossed into the Blue Riband basket, was stamped by someone wasn't paying attention/was hung over/whatever, and shipped.

    I'm sure that the historical company figures Neill spoke to were, indeed, 100% sure that no crossgrain BRs were ever authorized, and believed none were ever made because they were assured of it by those who worked for them. It's entirely possible that the line worker responsible for the break in policy didn't even realize it at the time for some reason.

    Doesn't matter.

    The cool part? That's now officially a truly rare pipe. Possibly unique.

    Posted 1 year ago #

Reply »

You must log in to post.

 

 

    Back To Top  | Back to Forum Home Page

   Members Online Now
   bluegrassbrian, ben88, newportpipe, danimalia, agnosticpipe, docrameous, cowboythunder, jiminks