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FDA Regs affect on Online Retail and B&Ms

(37 posts)
  1. jacks6

    jacks6

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    I know we've had some pretty exhaustive threads discussing FDA legislation and seeking comments from manufacturers. I'd like to know the thoughts of any online retail or Brick and Mortar businesses. How do you expect it to affect you? What should we expect to change in August?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. briarcudgel

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    Well, I certainly can't think of anything positive coming from it. I believe it will seriously impact the entire hobby and industry if the reg gets implemented as it now stands. I see lots of jobs being lost, and having to worry about hoarding baccy. Not a fun time, to be sure.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. iamn8

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    Yeah, at this point I believe that hoarding tobacco is a wise move. It'll only get worse. Can you imagine the FDA relaxing its stance on tobacco ever? I can't.

    Nate @ Moody AL
    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. beezer

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    I stopped by my local B&M to purchase a couple tins last week and asked the owner what he thought and he just shook his head sadly and said "the FDA regs are going to kill us." Then he made a couple comments about how dumb some of the regulations are and how the popular house blends that they blend on site will soon be prohibited.

    I only had a few seconds and couldn't stay to chat further with him on more of the specific ways the regs will impact his shop. I'll probably swing by next month once everyone has had a chance to read it in greater detail, etc.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. mso489

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    The retailers aren't pontificating on this much. I think they want to see how it shakes out, how enforcement actually proceeds. There's going to be blow-back, backfire, unintended consequences. I think people are widely aware of the health concerns with tobacco. Legalizing and regulating the whole discussion becomes intrusive and invasive and abusive. Perhaps that will become obvious and accommodations may be made. Or that's just happy talk. I don't think the retailers should fold their tents before there is no choice. Then there will be plenty of others to take their place who won't be paying any taxes, for starters. These won't be the nice folks who own pipe shops and belong to pipe clubs. So, see where that gets us.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. jiminks

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    It's possible you may see more bulk blends and fewer being sold by B&Ms when the worst happens, mainly due to the higher pricing. Those who have less money to spend, but want to smoke, will go for the cheaper option. I don't see bulk going away, but it may be that shops will have to label them with their real names and not house names.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. prairiedruid

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    A lot of B&Ms relabel Lane and Peter Stokkebye bulk blends as various house blends; I wonder if they will have to keep the Lane/Stokkebye name to avoid the FDA regulations.

    Oops this is what happens when you don't read all of a post......sorry Jim

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. pylorns

    James Foster

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    I mean they could do something like - mix it onsite but list the individual components they sold them...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. jmatt

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    Perhaps we will see an industry of pipe tobacco flavorings pop up? We could buy the individual tobaccos, along with toppings of our choice to add at home. Then these forums would spring up with threads about our favorite recipes. It should certainly be easy to buy unadulterated stock of straight virginia, perique, kentucky, burley, latakia, etc.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. zekest

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    One way to interpret the regs is that if a shop mixes a Lane bulk blend with a Peter Stokkebye bulk blend, that shop is "manufacturing" a tobacco product, which would now be illegal.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. jpmcwjr

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    Certainly possible, but a horrible interpretation of manufacturing.

    I hope that just the bulk providers of tobacco are the only ones subject to this. That way, blenders would be somewhat off the hook on this aspect. Unlikely, as that would be far less to regulate.

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. beezer

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    One way to interpret the regs is that if a shop mixes a Lane bulk blend with a Peter Stokkebye bulk blend, that shop is "manufacturing" a tobacco product, which would now be illegal.

    This is exactly the example my B&M was speaking of when he said they'd have to stop some of their house blends, which is in essence a combining of two different existing blends.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. pagan

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    I guess I will be adding my favorite blends to my stockpile of beans and bullets

    Nowhere in the world will such a brotherly feeling of confidence be experienced as amongst those who sit together smoking their pipes
    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. deathmetal

    deathmetal

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    I'm going to start an offshore B&M: sail into international waters, and stop in for low-cost tobacco and many different blends

    "My own experience has been that the tools I need for my trade are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey." -- William Faulkner

    The Metal Mixtures
    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. jmatt

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    I'm going to start an offshore B&M: sail into international waters, and stop in for low-cost tobacco and many different blends

    LIES!!! We all know the only blend on your boat would be Royal Yacht!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. weezell

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    I guess I will be adding my favorite blends to my stockpile of beans and bullets
    Good idea Brother...

    "the weez"...
    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. perdurabo

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    I've always said, "On the eve of a Tyrannical Centralized Government, every Business needs to seek out a Protection Agency." Each and every business is a private entity, where not one of us has any political will to regulate. The FDA was started by Teddy the Big Shot Progressive, and has no authority. None. No statutory law, nor Federal Constitutional law, binds thee to this 4th Branch of US government. Take a stand for your private property B&M, dare this leviathan, the people will back you. I'll stand with arms to protect a brother's private property. Will You?

    It's not my position nor want to help another man. It's his responsibility to help himself, as where he can learn to dig down deep enough to save himself. -I. Kidd
    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. pappymac

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    The first lawsuit against the FDA Deeming Rule has been fired. http://cigar-coop.com/2016/05/news-e-liquid-company-files-first-legal-challenge-against-fda.html

    I am glad we have a good admin and responsible moderators.

    Heave to you dark colored ship under sail! Prepare to be boarded!
    Posted 3 years ago #
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    shutterbugg

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    There's no regulation (yet) against private citizens blending for their own consumption, so B&M's could still sell their house blends as "kits", pre-measured component tobaccos which the buyer would mix together.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. jacks6

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    I'm glad to see someone is taking action pappymac

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. deathmetal

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    B&Ms are doomed unless taxes are rolled back. That is the elephant in the room.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    theediabeticman

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    I am currently employed at a B&M where we have house blends (been here since 1939).
    We are planning (if nothing takes place) to no longer offer any bulk tobacco. The "manufacturing" language would apply if we were to open a bag of 1Q and pour it into a pouch (even if we kept the name 1Q). The costs of being a manufacturer are too oppressive to have any local shop be able to afford it. Having called and had conversations with around 15 other B&Ms around the country...well it's not looking good.
    EX: A stay at home mom makes a PBndJ sandwich for her kiddos. It doesn't matter that every single food product has already passed the necessary testing to be distributed. The moment she opens the package and uses Peanut Butter, Jelly, and bread (also the knife used to change the product) she is a manufacturer and is required to pay to have all these already approved products, re-approved (including the knife). This reg (if it passes as it stands) will not have a huge effect on our larger (actual) manufacturers, but will be death of many small shops...I hope I end up being wrong; but as of now (again if no changes happen to this regulatory move) many of your local B&Ms will be dramatically changed and may even close.

    Inspirational quote to be inserted during an inspirational moment
    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. deathmetal

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    The "manufacturing" language would apply if we were to open a bag of 1Q and pour it into a pouch (even if we kept the name 1Q).

    This makes so little sense it must be true.

    Sorry to hear it.

    Armed revolution may be easier than acceptance. Just sayin'

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. jacks6

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    Thank you for commenting theediabeticman and man, I am really sorry to hear that. Those restrictions are ridiculous. I imagine it would make no sense to order bulk at all anymore unless someone requests a 5lb / 2lb bag. I'm really hoping something happens to alter this course we're heading towards.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. jmatt

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    I've been saying this: We're going to have tinned blends only. No new blends after August 2017. Many foreign blends will stop exporting to the U.S., and many Existing blends will vanish. Heck C&D has 265 blends in the Tobaccoreviews database (plus the stuff they mix for everyone else including GL Pease). Do you think they are going to submit 265 products? Plus 2oz and 8oz tins each have to be submitted, along with any blends they sell as bulk - 84 varieties. So you can either believe C&D is submitting 500 applications, or believe there will be less variety available from them soon.

    The only hope is that the compliance date is changed from 2007 to 2017. But after August of this year, I don't expect to see a new blend available from anyone in quite some time. A new blend should take 3 years to come to market now.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    I hope half-pound tins of Embarcadero make the cut. Union Square and Laurel Heights would be icing on the cake.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. deathmetal

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    Eh, this one hinges upon the ambiguous notion of "equivalency."

    One Burley/Virginia blend may be the same as the others, or entirely different, depending on which bureaucrat-bot is in charge.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. jacks6

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    I can see the possibility of an emerging black market for famous house blends...I'd better stock up on shortcut to mushrooms now

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. tennsmoker

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    Well, this might sound foolish, but Congress can get involved if it wants to. I mean, the pols in Washington have not yielded all of their authority over to the FDA.

    True, the FDA can make its own rules up as it goes along. But, Congress can pull up the reins and tell the boys and girls at FDA to bring themselves in for a hearing or two.

    I'm just sayin' if we are loud enough on this, we might get some Congressional help. Even the cigar lovers should be willing to offer a voice or two, since their ox has been gored and will be gored again by the FDA.

    My two for what it is worth.


    The past is never dead. It's not even past--Requiem for a Nun
    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. perdurabo

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    FDA has no authority, no American Bureaucracy has authority. There is no Amendement to a 4th branch of government to my knowledge. These are the answers to all these inquiries.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  31. metalheadycigarguy

    metalheadycigarguy

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    As I stated in one of the other threads, the lawsuits are coming, and from pappymac's earlier post there is already one going forward. Lawsuits like this one and others that will come will tie up the FDA regulations for many years. Just like the RJ Reynold's lawsuit that has tied up the 2009 FDA regulations with cigarette manufacturers pertaining to graphic labels on cigarette packages. During the pending lawsuits tobacco manufacturer's, blenders, and B&Ms will not be subject to the regulations.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  32. ltstone

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    So at worst how long do I have to stock up before prices and availability change?

    an ego without the power to notice itself
    Posted 3 years ago #
  33. jmatt

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    At worst? Blends start drying up this August. The sharpest change will take place over the next 36 months as blends are submitted for approval (or not submitted) and initially have up to three years before they'd have to be pulled if not approved. My prediction is that blenders large and small will start phasing out at least a portion of anything introduced since 2007. I'd also expect to see imported tobacco start to disappear as foreign blends won't see the benefit of exporting to the U.S. as their cost of compliance increases.

    Also, if they fix the disparity between RYO tobacco and Pipe tobacco, the Federal tax per typical tin would go up an additional $2.70.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  34. madmurdoc

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    we might get some Congressional help

    Congressional help... That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one

    "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons."
    -Herodotus
    Posted 3 years ago #
  35. mso489

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    Suits and counter-suits could go on for years and years. With luck. I think shop owners and other retailers should cool their jets and see what happens, for now. Pipe smokers should be tactical in writing to legislators and try to pick legislators and angle subjects in a way to hitch onto their interests. No one outside the community is going to ride to the rescue of pipe smokers, but they might help for other reasons. Some states still grow some tobacco. Some states still have a pipe industry.

    Some of the pipe shop people who are bailing out might stay in biz and be long retired before any of this kicks in. Not likely, on the one hand, but entirely possible.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    Congressional help... That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one

    Posted 3 years ago #
  37. jacks6

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    No doubt the suits and countersuits could hold up parts of the legislation (like cigarette companies challenging the graphic warning labels) - but I'm doubtful they can tie the whole thing up.

    Posted 3 years ago #

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