"Fabled Tobacco Experiement"

derfargin · May 9, 2014

Soooooo recently there was a post of a member receiving an aged sample of the famed "Balkan Sobranie" and after reading it, I started thinking.
*Disclaimer: I'm was referring to a recent post by Shantiques, regarding a 30 year old sample of Balkan Sobranie given to him by Condor. Please gentlemen, I'm not trying to belittle the gesture by any means. I'm very happy a rare experience was shared amongst true gentlemen in our hobby. Quite honestly, in all of Shantique's efforts to grow this hobby and get pipes to newcomers the way he has, the gesture by Condor couldn't have gone to a more deserving person. Also, a huge nod to Condor for doing so, but it seems he's no stranger to great acts of giving by going out of his way to obtain hard to find tobacco's for US folk when traveling overseas.*
Anyway..on to my point.
I approach lots of things with science in mind, and I value objective opinions. I'd be curious to what the outcome would be if the same scenario was played out, with one exception. The individual receiving said sample of tobacco wasn't informed it was a "THE" 30 year old Balkan Sobranie. Just an "oh btw I sent you a sample of some some tobacco I've had cellared for a while, give it a shot and tell me what you think." It would be interesting how the review of the tobacco would be not knowing of the fabled value. Just the tobacco speaking on it's own merit, and the perceived status being taken out of the question.
There has been numerous studies done, and the power the mind has on perceived things is very, well.....persuasive.
It's the cornerstone of "branding" in marketing, and it is so, because it works.
Would someone dare say that they've knowingly tried a "hallowed" tobacco and didn't care for it?
I would ask this question about any aged tobacco that has had a reputation of being "top of the mountain" like. I'm a huge fan of blind taste tests when it comes to consumer products. Take the name brand off it, and see how it stacks up to "Jim-Bobs Garage 2-backee blends"
That is when you can truly pit tobacco against tobacco. Not tobacco against marketing, or word of mouth.
What say you?

fadingdaylight · May 9, 2014

I am all for a blind taste test of tobaccos. Where do I sign up? Hell, I hope I like the cheapest one...

rmbittner · May 9, 2014

derfargin:
What you describe is a very common occurrence in the wine world.
I think the only real challenge for the blind taster is having the knowledge and experience to be able to reasonably evaluate any unknown blend. Judging from purplemotoman's post above, he would be the kind of pipe smoker who would likely fail at this experiment: He acknowledges that he knows nothing about different tobacco leaves, which leads me to assume he hasn't educated his palate to be able to identify and, therefore, appreciate a tobacco that may not necessarily be to his personal liking. So he won't be able to distinguish Syrian latakia from Cypriot latakia, say, which, depending on the quality of the leaf, could lead a blind taster to make certain conclusions about the age and quality of a blend. (No offense intended, purple! Please don't take it that way.)
I think whether a blind taster "likes" a tin of, say, 60-year-old Craven Mixture is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is that smoker's ability to understand and appreciate that tobacco regardless of his or her personal likes and dislikes. If you don't have a background of smoking widely and deeply, then I think you'd be ill-suited to this experiment. It would be like asking for an educated analysis of 20 different coffees from someone whose only had coffee from the diner down the street.
Besides, if you love aromatics, chances are you wouldn't enjoy any Balkan, not just an old tin of Balkan Sobranie. Similarly, if you gave me a 50-year-old tin of the original Three Nuns, I could tell you that it's an aged VA/perique spun cut, but the experience would be largely wasted on me, since I'm not able to smoke perique in any quantity.
Bob

fadingdaylight · May 9, 2014

Bob- Does this mean I can't sign up? Lol.

phred · May 9, 2014

What you describe is a very common occurrence in the wine world.

Bingo.
This is why I like reading reviews both by relative newbies (such as myself) and by far more experienced pipe smokers and industry professionals - my own palate is getting better, but I've only been smoking for a little over a year, and the really subtle stuff is not yet something I can reliably pick out. Finding out what others think of a particular blend (especially in comparison to stuff that I am now familiar with) can be very helpful.
On the other hand, I have seen some reviews on various review sites that sound an awful lot like the most pretentious of wine reviews (or beer, or scotch - the latter two I'm much more familiar with), and I do wonder how much of that is simply blather to make the reviewer sound good, as opposed to actual data on the taste and experience. Taste is so subjective (and subject to external variables such as body chemistry, general health, and what the reviewer had for lunch) that it can be difficult to weed out a useful review from the blatherskites.

rmbittner · May 9, 2014

fadingdaylight:
Ha! Well, I think you'd actually be better served by going into an aged, sought-after blend unblind. That way you'd get some real insight that would serve you well in the future.
Just my opinion, of course!
Bob

voorhees · May 9, 2014

I saw this experiment done with Vodka. All of these supposed "connoisseurs" who had a preferred brand could not detect it in a blind test. Even chose cheaper brands over uber-expensive versions.

I'm sure it can happen in tobacco as well.

rmbittner · May 9, 2014

voorhees:
We see this in the blind-tasting reviews that have been done here too. Sometimes the three or four blind reviewers don't agree on the constituent leaf or even the flavors in a blend. That said, the reviews -- posted in the Tobacco Discussion forum -- make fascinating reading and I really appreciate the time it takes to pull these off.
Maybe the problem is simply that most of us haven't smoked as intentionally as you need to in order to acquire the knowledge you need to accurately evaluate a tobacco blend.
Bob

fadingdaylight · May 9, 2014

I use this site as my guide to new blends. I watch the "What Are You Smoking?" thread, among others, to spot people who have similar taste, then when I see that several of those people are smoking something I have yet to try, well...
Seems to be working good. I have yet to find a god awful one. My most recent revelation was Luxury Navy Flake, which seems to grow on you after a day or two. And it's cheap. Escudo is still on my "one of these days" list though...

derfargin · May 9, 2014

rmbittner:
I see your point and where you were going with it. I was going to mention something like that in my original post, but refrained due to the fact that at times sometimes people can get too granular in tobacco reviews. It's kind of.."can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees" kind of thing.
While I agree with you when you say that someone who doesn't have much experience smoking a complex blend of tobacco will have the ability to pick up subtleties or nuances. It doesn't mean the "newer" smoker wouldn't be able to tell you if they liked it or not.
I would say it it would be MOST wasted on someone that had already said they're not a fan of a taste of a type of tobacco contained in the mixture. (i.e. Latakia to name one) If we're talking about Balkan Sobranie. If purplemoto man has only smoked Aro's and hasn't yet branched out into English blends, then I wouldn't rule him out. I know you used him as an example as a new smoker and were by no means saying anything about him personally.
All you really need to know is that you liked or disliked a blend. The problem comes when you're trying to describe to someone why you did/didn't like it. That's when you have to start trying to break it down into smaller components to explain your hypothesis.
Now having said that, if it were that black and white tobaccoreviews.com would be a pretty boring site.
Sure tastes change with anything over time...food, drink, and tobacco is no different.

rmbittner · May 9, 2014

"All you really need to know is that you liked or disliked a blend."
But I'm not sure this gets at the point I thought you were making in the OP. Because I thought you were suggesting that a blind taster might come to an old tin of Balkan Sobranie and they'd disparage it because they didn't know what it really was. If they tried it and just didn't like it. . . well that's a completely different thing. Because there's no shame or embarrassment in simply not liking something, regardless of how expensive, revered, or sought-after it might be. I don't think any pipe smoker should be expected to *like* anything simply because it's "fabled." That's like saying you should like caviar simply because it's expensive.
Bob

settersbrace · May 9, 2014

Take the following with a grain of salt, please.
I was once told by a long time tobacconist that back when Cuban cigars were bought and smoked here in the US, prior to the embargo, that the overall sales numbers fell in around 10% of the total market in cigar sales. After the embargo the demand skyrocketed, of course. I've smoked pre-embargo Cubans as well as modern day "genuine" Cubans and there is a day and night difference. I can also say with certainty that there are Honduran and Dominican sticks available today in the US that can rival any of the old Cuban cigars simply because many of the growers fled to those countries and took seed with them.
Not having ever had the opportunity to smoke any vintage blends along the lines of the storied BS 759 I have no base line in which to make judgement other than what I know I like with what's out there now for me to smoke. If I were given an unmarked sample to test I would certainly be able to tell if it was in fact a remarkable blend that pushed all the buttons of my pre-conditioned palate that already favors English/Balkan blends. I would not have even a wild guess at what I was smoking even if I thought it was the best tobacco I've ever smoked.
I know its apples and oranges but I think many of us get caught up in trying to obtain the un-obtainable and knowing that pipe tobaccos change dramatically sometimes with age, I doubt none of us alive today would ever be able to experience the long gone tobaccos of years past in the original context. All the more reason to covet the treasures available to us now.

derfargin · May 9, 2014

"That's like saying you should like caviar simply because it's expensive."
Not the same example. A more accurate statement for what I was trying get across is(and to use your example) "Here try this sample of Caspian(made-up-brand name)caviar. You should know that the fish that these eggs come from are now extinct and you cant get this anymore. Most everyone raves about how good it is." Cost isn't a factor here, it's about the implied quality and it's scarecity.
My original point is to give a sample of Balkan Sobranie to someone that knowingly likes that kind of blend, and see how they react to it without them knowing what it really is.

derfargin · May 9, 2014

settersbrace:
Another great point made. Back when BS 759 was easily obtainable, I'll bet there was another tobacco that was sought after that could no longer be found. History repeats itself, and one day 30 years from now we'll be saying. People will be paying high dollars for some tobacco that's available today.
Actually, we're starting to see swing towards this type of thing with Esoterica's offereings. Sure they're not out of business, but it's hard to get. I myself am wanting to try Penzance, just out of the curiosity of sheer fact of wanting to find out what the big deal is.

condorlover1 · May 9, 2014

Funny enough I found the tin in my bedroom drawer in the UK as I was clearing up my Mothers house after her passing the other year. I purchased several tins in the mid 1980s and smoked one tin and didn't really care for it. I divided it up and gave a quarter to each of the people who I thought might enjoy it. I wondered what it would taste like and by all accounts it seems to have survived the years OK. I love sharing tobacco with my frinds on the forum since it gives so much pleasure. As an after thought I will be in the UK next month for 4 days. I have everyones latest wish list but anyone else who wants anyhing PM me before June 6th. Have a good weekend guys as I am heading NYC and exiting NJ until next week.

derfargin · May 9, 2014

Again..I say quite the gentleman Condor. Enjoy your weekend, and safe travels.

cosmicfolklore · May 9, 2014

There are very few blends of tobacco that one could call gourmet. They're all relatively cheap as dirt. once per once, way cheaper than cigarettes, plus it takes me ten times as long to smoke through a tin than it did a pack of cigarettes. So, there's one blend that more people like, and maybe it's a little mythical. I can't say for sure, because I just don't enjoy latakia. I wouldn't call the epic shift to get a hold of a tin of BS, par ofr the course.
As far as reviews. Jeesh, this comes up a bunch, and I was setting on your side of the fence not too long ago. You stick around here long enough, and you'll be tasting raisin, hay, leather, lemon, honey verses caramel notes all over your smoke. Yep, I was the guy going, "but is it good?" Which doesn't even make sense. What does good mean? It's much easier to define raisin and honey than it is to define "good."
We have a member, Pruss, who is in the coffee industry and does a better job of explaining how to taste.

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/a-matter-of-taste-%E2%80%93-part-1-what-is-taste

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/a-matter-of-taste-part-2-what-is-flavour

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/a-matter-of-taste-part-3-the-mechanics-of-tasting
Tasting using similes such as hay, raisin, etc, allows us to communicate the flavors, way better than good, bad, which doesn't mean anything, especially to a guy who is as picky as me.
As far as expensive tobaccos... where are the $100 blends? The differences in prices are usually just dollars, not digits. And, most of the differences are due to marketing and packaging.

I guess the more important question is which ones are the cheap ones? Heck, Carter hall and Prince Albert are way more expensive to me, because they are at the drug store with small quantities being sold at cigarette prices. A tin of FVF is about the same price to me, gram per gram.

rmbittner · May 9, 2014

Derfargin:
PM sent...
Bob

cosmicfolklore · May 9, 2014

You guys are talking about me behind my back, aren't you? Is my zipper open? :?

settersbrace · May 9, 2014

Funny that back in the day, as they say, I smoked a good bit of Penzance and although it's a very good mixture, it's not one that I'd chase to the ends of the earth for. I find other Balkan flakes more appealing and find it quite laughable to see the frantic bidding wars when it pops up on flea bay. There's a similar situation going on globally with certain types of ammunition and even though production is at 100%, the product gets more scarce by the day.

"Fabled Tobacco Experiement"

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