Ethics/Environmental Concerns Regarding Pipe Tobacco Cultivation

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macaroon

Starting to Get Obsessed
Oct 2, 2015
279
96
Michigan
In general I try to inform myself as much as possible before making a with any sort of weight. I performed quite a bit of Internet research into the possible health concerns and general opinions and views of pipes smoking, but I did not consider the possible issues regarding the ethics of producing the crop in the first place. My normal Google-fu techniques are yielding few useful results, so I was hoping you all would be able to share anything you've heard through the grapevine in relation to the aforementioned concerns. General labor practices, environmental impacts of farming (domestic and abroad), and the like. Sources would be GREATLY appreciated whenever they are known!
I enjoy the pipe, and do not judge those who wish to partake. However, these topics are of a great enough concern to me that I wish to know more before contributing more money to the industry. Thank you all for your help and understanding!

 

deathmetal

Lifer
Jul 21, 2015
7,714
32
Your society is collapsing around you, and the real environmental threat is too many homes/stores/roads for too many people. What's there to worry about?

 

michaelmirza

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 21, 2015
638
0
Chicago, IL
The main issue I know about is that there is a decent amount of child labor involved in tobacco growing and harvesting, especially (but NOT exclusively) intentionally. It's scary stuff. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

pappymac

Lifer
Feb 26, 2015
3,301
4,348
Child labor is not an issue for tobacco grown in the U.S. It is more of a potential in other problem but I don't know of documentation on it being a problem. On the other hand, in low income countries it provides a source of income for many families.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
I can hit this one from every angle. I'll start with child labor. Children should not be doing labor that takes a man's brawn to do. On the other side of the token, children should learn the value of work, which will help them respect the value of a dollar. We know in third world countries that slave child labor is rampant, but what are you going to do about it, Stop your hobby. That was harsh, but under circumstances a child may need the work and may be recieving a pay that is beneficial to his family. At this point Im not talking about child slavery guys and gals.
As far as enviromental issues, its not to smart to grow crops and destroy the land, therefore reducing a profit in the long run. That is an issue of the past and men have learn thier lessons on this fallacy. Once again, thaings that happen in third world countries, what are you going to do? If you institute competition on the market at all levels in the tobacco industry and do away with organized theft(harmful taxation) then these issue will iron themselves out. No government oversight will protect the individual with these issues, only continue to cause more problems.
Bono said something to the effect that Capitalism has done more for Africa than anything else. And of course he is right.

 

smokinfireman

Starting to Get Obsessed
Aug 17, 2015
176
1
If kids in America had to start working at the age of 10 or 12 like our Grandfathers did we might not be a fat helpless nation full of flappy bird playing idiots on welfare who can't figure out how to change a tire. Nothing against flappy birds in itself :)

 

deathmetal

Lifer
Jul 21, 2015
7,714
32
I think the big point is simple economics: if they're working the job, it's better than their other options.

 

michaelmirza

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 21, 2015
638
0
Chicago, IL
If you want to ruin your day, watch the video in this article: https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/04/16/us-ban-hazardous-child-labor-tobacco-farming
This is an issue I still wrestle with quite a bit, despite loving my pipes.

 

tinsel

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 23, 2015
531
7
Perhaps I can offer some insight here, having been a "child laborer" in tobacco fields myself.
First off, I think the article Michael linked to is overstating the dangers to the young people working on the tobacco farms. The only time I remember getting "nicotine sickness" was when stripping the tobacco after curing, and only on the really long work days where several wagon loads were stripped. Even then, it was mild and never enough to cause me to step away from the work.
None of us were ever asked to climb up high into the barns until we were old enough to do so safely. For one thing your legs must be long enough to reach from beam to beam, or you can't do the job once you are up there anyways. Is there a risk of falling? Yes, of course. But in all the years I worked in tobacco no one ever fell in one of our barns. Not a youngster or an adult. Additionally, the higher in the barn you were stationed, the LESS work you were doing. The man on the bottom tier handles every single stick getting hung in the barn. If you are on the top tier of a 4 tier barn, you only handle 1/4 of the sticks. The majority of your time is spent just standing on the beams waiting for the next stick to come up. So, there's plenty of time to think about NOT falling and making sure to move around so your legs don't cramp up. Not really any more dangerous than climbing a tree if you ask me.
"Exposure to dangerous chemicals" I think is also pretty overstated. There are pesticides sprayed on the fields early in the season when the plants are very young. This is done with a tractor sprayer and no one is really being "exposed" to this chemical to any extent. The only person in the field that day is the one driving the tractor. The plants aren't physically handled after this for a good long while either. The only job to do at this time is hoeing. By the time "suckering" comes around, the pesticides are pretty much gone from the surface of the plants.
The other dangerous chemical is used when the plants are "topped and oiled". The flowering part of the plant is cut off from the top, and a chemical is sprayed on the plant to control the "suckers". Some farmers spray the chemical with a tractor sprayer, others with handheld garden type sprayers similar to what you use to spray roundup on the weeds in your lawn. How dangerous are these chemicals? I don't know, I'm not a doctor. But I never got sick from them. Maleic hydrazide is the active ingredient in these sprays (source : http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr154/agr154.htm )
"Two-thirds of the children interviewed reported vomiting, nausea, headaches, and dizziness while working on tobacco farms, all symptoms consistent with acute nicotine poisoning. "
These are also symptoms associated with being outdoors in the heat too much, drinking a cold soda too fast in the sun, not eating sufficiently when working outdoors on a hot day, and being a kid trying to get out of work on the family farm :) . Maybe I'm a skeptic, but I seriously doubt that 2/3 of them really had nicotine poisoning.
One last thing and I'm gonna get off of the "child labor" stuff. In this area, the tobacco fields are one of the ONLY places that a young man or woman can make a little decent money during the summer. Like most of the country, child labor laws have made it to where a 12-15 year old can't really get a job in many places. Then at age 16 it's pretty much a minimum wage fast food job or nothing at all. So, a 14 year old with a little bit of gumption, who doesn't mind a hard day's work and wants to get a little money together (maybe for a car in a couple years) can always turn to a local tobacco farmer for work. Unfortunately the number of young people with that kind of gumption and the willingness to do the hard work is shrinking constantly (not to mention adults willing to do the work). This has forced most farmers to turn to immigrant laborers instead. Since the immigrant laborers are there every day, always willing to work, it's hard for many farmers to place for the few young locals who do want to work. When you have one group of people who you can't rely on to be there for the job, and another group you can rely on ... well guess who gets the job?
environmental impacts of farming
I'd say no more than any other cash crop, and less than many.
Children should not be doing labor that takes a man's brawn to do.
Agreed. I never once in all my years in the tobacco fields ever saw a child being asked to do a man's work. Young children are usually given jobs such as picking up loose leaves that have fallen, bringing cups of water to those who are in the fields, dropping sticks to be used by those who are spiking the plants (carrying tobacco sticks into the field and laying them on the ground in predetermined intervals), etc. I have very fond memories of "pegging" during setting season. I had a short wooden stake and a couple tobacco plants in my hands and would walk barefoot 20 feet behind the setter. Whenever someone missed a plant on the setter, I "pegged" a hole in the ground and inserted a plant, then mounded the dirt up around the base. I felt like a "real" farmer every one of those plants that I hand-set in the ground.
There's plenty of jobs to do on the tobacco farm that don't require a man's brawn. I could go on for days about the little odd jobs I did as a kid. All very fond memories indeed.
A tobacco farm instilled in me the work ethic and many of the values I carry today. I wouldn't dream of depriving any young man of those lessons. I didn't always like it back then, but wouldn't trade it for anything now.

 

bigpond

Lifer
Oct 14, 2014
2,019
13
This thread falls in to the same category as the the "smoking naked" thread.
However, I would like to make two very basic points.
First off, I think the article Michael linked to is overstating the dangers to the young people working on the tobacco farms. The only time I remember getting "nicotine sickness" was when stripping the tobacco after curing, and only on the really long work days where several wagon loads were stripped. Even then, it was mild and never enough to cause me to step away from the work.
Firstly, your experience Tinsel is not typical for the average tobacco farmer or worker.
China 36%, India 10%, Brazil 9%, USA 6% and Malawi 2% contribute over 60% of the world's annual tobacco crop.
China is amongst the ten most cited countries for human rights violations.

Malawi is one of the most poor countries in the world. The majority of farmers lease their farms from corporate landowners whom also set the price for the tobacco.
Here's one of many video's that discuss tobacco production in Malawi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOiWeJxYxvE
While the US has the fewest number of human rights violations for farm workers in this group, standards did lag behind both India and Brazil and there were well documented cases of children as young as 12 working 12 hours shifts every day. Tobacco farms in the US were exempt from following all the provision of child labor laws. These children would not be allowed to work at a Pizza Hut because they would not qualify for a workers permit. In 2015 the US instituted policy to raise the minimum age of tobacco field workers to 18.
Here are a few links that cover the labor market and the conditions and hazards associated with production. Basic stuff.
http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/child-labor-us-tobacco-farming-human-rights

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/05/13/tobaccos-hidden-children/hazardous-child-labor-united-states-tobacco-farming

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/04/16/us-ban-hazardous-child-labor-tobacco-farming
This post was made with about 5 minutes of research which is the second point I wanted to make. There is a ton of information out there for anyone with an interest in looking. Was the OP's intention to make us all reflect on the industries global impact?

 

seagullplayer

Part of the Furniture Now
Jan 30, 2014
500
129
Indiana
Myself and just about everyone I know growing up worked either in Tobacco or putting up hay.
If it is keeping you up at night, I would consider a change.

 
Tobacco farming was a family thing, just as all farming was. I use "was" because I cannot speak for the majority of farms today. Several times a year, we would all load up and drive to North Carolina to help the family with farming in general, not just tobacco. I would not trade the experience for anything in the world. Calling it "child labor" just shows ignorance. It's not like in my dad's day, when they used to send kids up into the large gears of the cotton gin to jump on the levers and gears to get them running. It was more like good family fun, working together as a team. Stuff this country could use a little more of.
We knew about tobacco poisoning. My Uncle lost a hand from handling the tops and suckers. He was a couple of generations ahead of us though, and kids did not work the tops and suckers in my day. That was for the men wearing gloves and long sleeves in the fields. And, you could not have stopped me from climbing the rafters of the barn. The idea that, that would have been a bad thing is just OSHA brianwashed, bike-helmet wearing, don't let your kids leave the yard thinking. I guess your kids live safely inside the house in front of a computer or iGadget, correct?
This actually pisses me off. Sure, people in other countries may have a little different situation. But, you'd fret over one product, tobacco, while you set there on your iGadget that was made by communist slaves and shopping for your WalMart (or really any store's) goods produced in sweat shops, where sexual bondage, child labor, and a whole long list of human atrocities occur? Tobacco, really? You come on a pipe forum and complain about this one product? Are you drinking coffee? Did you go to the Starbuck's website to give them a whine and cheese party. Good grief!

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Well said Cosmic and tinsel. I guess all the progressives on this site are going to Call up their representatives in Washington to wage war on their behalf now. Sounds like a movement the neo-Cons tried not to long ago. Democracy Project. Just remeber every where a Democracy is erectied( not talking about the democratic procces here) dicatatorships arise leading to tyranny.

 

macaroon

Starting to Get Obsessed
Oct 2, 2015
279
96
Michigan
Thank you michaelmirza, tinsel, bigpond, and cosmic for sharing your research and experiences. I admit that I had performed but some preliminary searching before posting the thread, partly because I was interested in your responses (which is the point of a forum, is it not?), and because I don't recall ever seeing such a topic brought up before. I have since looked at the links shared on this page, and done more of my own exploration. All of your thoughts and responses are greatly appreciated.
Cosmic, you are completely right. I do not wish to harsh on the tobacco industry as any more detrimental to society than the industry that brought me the computer I'm using to type this post. No intent to complain, just a request for insight and opinions. Heck, I probably do more harm by eating meat than by purchasing tobacco products, but there are innumerable measures I could take to minimize my personal impact on this Earth. Trying to tackle them all at once would drive me insane. It is simply that tobacco is one factor that I can easily and conveniently address in the present moment. "A journey of 1000 miles," and all. And on a separate note, I am a college student without children. I haven't even made a final decision on my major! Cut a dumb kid some slack, huh? :wink: :lol:
I apologize for any offense taken on account of this thread, no one can argue against the value of knowing a hard day's work, but I do not regret broaching the topic. I strongly believe that such consideration ought to be taken in any decision, tobacco-related or otherwise. Or, as much as is possible without going crazy.
Lastly, (I promise I'll finish this mind-dump shortly!) please don't interpret this as some "holier than thou" nonsense. I like pipes, I like tobacco, and I love the sense of community that comes with being a part of this forum. It will all be sorely missed should this hobby find itself put the wayside. Also, I'm aware that this appears to be inching towards the realm of melodramatic crap but I'll stand by it nonetheless, all politics aside.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Haaaaaa haaaaaa The Gaurdian as a source, now you have really lost me, Bigpond. macaroon good luck choosing a major.

 
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