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Engineering

(74 posts)
  • Started 11 months ago by saltedplug
  • Latest reply from sablebrush52
  1. saltedplug

    saltedplug

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    With all the excitement about the big money Chonowitsch pipes and the claim in his bio on smokingpipes that he has refined all parts of pipe design, including engineering, I decided to poke around a bit to find out what people mean when they use the term, especially as I've considered the term an inflated euphemism for drilling.

    I thought I would get a lot of hits googling "pipemakers forum engineering," but not much turned up. But I did get a hit to Stephen Downie's blog:

    "What this means for me when I'm making my pipes is that I drill with a large enough bit to give ample airflow. I'm a fan of drill bits on either side and including 11/64ths. These are generally small enough that they won't draw flakes of ash and tobacco up the pipe and large enough to give a good draw.

    The next part is maintaining the airflow. You can have a draught hole an inch in diameter if you want, but if it narrows for to the size of a needle you still won't be able to draw much out of it. So here we come to the problem: People like an open draw and a narrow, comfortable bit. This means that simply drilling an 11/64th bit all the way through a piece of plastic and calling it done isn't going to cut it. That's why most pipe makers drill the stem material with a drill bit that tapers to a point from one side of the stem material then drill with a much smaller diameter bit from the other side. This is followed up by opening up the bit side of the stem with various needle files, thin saw blades, drill bits and other assorted burrs and files. The important part here is to make sure that the airway isn't constricted once the bit is opened up. The airflow should be constant from the draught hole to the end of the bit.

    These are the basic rules I follow when I'm making a pipe. Every pipe is different and each needs to be evaluated for the engineering that will work best for the tobacco chamber size and construction considerations. Beyond these two basic engineering aspects people begin talking about polishing the airway, and other more exotic ways of helping a pipe smoke well. At this point it gets into the Law of Diminishing Returns. Basically it's a lot more work for very little -if any- gain."

    So. He drills a non-engineered straight line through the shank into the bowl, at the bottom and centered. No engineering here. But he does take extra time with the stem and uses a variety of tools to promote the airflow through it. He opens the stem but uses no engineering principles in doling so. Also of note are the final two sentences which clearly state that hours spent on minute features, which might amount to engineering, produce little or no airway improvement.

    I'm going to look into this more and will post here if I find anything noteworthy.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  2. sasquatch

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    Depends on what you think "engineering" is. If it's performing a specified set of calculations in order to determine the operational parameters of something, then no, pipe makers do not "engineer". However if modelling and real-world performance evaluations are considered, maybe there is some "engineering" being done.

    In any case, what there undeniably is inside a pipe is a little physical chemistry going on. We are trying to pull a heated gas at low pressure through a tube. The hopeful idea is that in doing so we don't knock out all the good tasting stuff - oils, esters - the molecules we taste. Condensation is the enemy in this case, so the idea naturally enough is to build these things with fairly smooth interiors for the smoke. The idea of a constant-volume airway is one approach - you limit the twists and turns and most notably any plenum space inside the pipe.

    There are other ways to skin the cat - Bernoulli's law indicate that the faster a gas is moving, the less pressure it exerts, which is to say, the less contact it has with the walls of the vessel. So a thinner and thinner tube might provide less condensation (to a point where it is too thin to pull the gas comfortably perhaps). Likewise other systems try intentionally to cause turbulent flow (Peterson System) to knock out "extra" moisture. Or the secondary cooling chambers of the so-called "reverse calabash" pipes, allowing cooler smoke through the stem, possibly cooling without condensing in the big chamber.

    For sure I know a few guys in the "a pipe is a pipe, no?" school, but I've had so many incessant gurglers, hot smokers, bad tasting..... in short "bad smokers" that when I get a good one, I know it and cherish it, and as a pipe maker, I try to emulate it.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  3. hoosierpipeguy

    hoosierpipeguy

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    I'm a mechanical engineer by degree. The term engineering is thrown around loosely and incorrectly when it comes to pipes. I don't think there is any engineering involved. There is art and mostly, there is manufacturing, building or crafting. If someone sat down and drew up a blue print for a new pipe concept, perhaps that could be considered engineering.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  4. ashdigger

    ashdigger

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    Here we go again.

    Ubi Ignis Est?
    Posted 11 months ago #
  5. balkisobrains

    balkisobrains

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    Double-edged sword with that "I'm an engineer" thing.
    On one hand, you're going to get paid more for what you do.
    On the other hand, you're going to get charged more when you stand there telling someone that you're an engineer, and proceed to try and (almost invariably incorrectly) tell them how to do their job, lol.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  6. brian64

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    Everything I know about engineering I learned from reading Dilbert.

    “Bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.” – George Carlin
    Posted 11 months ago #
  7. tbradsim1

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    Hoosierpipeguy this is in no way meant to besmirch your proffesion, but I had an MIT Guy tell me the program I've designed for this unit(Chemical Plant) can not be undone or taken off the Computer, you have to let it run once it's on control. He told me that smugly. Now we ran the Plant with picture NASA boards computer control that you see on TV for a space shot. Semi Circle Stainless Steel operating Stations. But 4 ft in front of it was a backup board so in Emergencys we could take control when computer crashed. I went to the backup board and put everything on manual, then turned to Mr Smarty Pants, and said it's off control, I wish you could have seen the look on his face.

    The Old Cajun
    Posted 11 months ago #
  8. lordofthepiperings

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    If someone sat down and drew up a blue print for a new pipe concept, perhaps that could be considered engineering.

    Actually a lot of pipe makers do sit down and draw a "blue print" or template for the pipes they carve.

    I would argue there is engineering involved, because you have to figure out drilling angles and dimensions. It happens especially with commission work. Guys like Rick Newcombe prefer pipes drilled a bit differently, so a pipe maker he commissions a pipe from would have to adjust his bit and angles to achieve the airway Rick prefers.

    I think we take it for granted, because these pipe makers do it over and over again so much that we don't think there's much skill/design involved in it.

    "The thinking man always smokes a Peterson." -Peterson of Dublin
    Posted 11 months ago #
  9. hoosierpipeguy

    hoosierpipeguy

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    A lot of pipemakers? Name 10 that you have seen do this or have seen blueprints with their names on them then.

    tbrad, I've spent most of my career in technical sales and the last 10 owning a Construction Company. You could put the amount of pure engineering I've done in my career inside a thimble. I don't take it personally, I was just trying to offer some clarification. If some people want to call what they're doing with a pipe engineering it, they should have a happy. I can't see much engineering at all in factory pipes and I consider Artisan pipes more art than engineering. And I say that in a complimentary fashion.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  10. sasquatch

    sasquatch

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    Okay, let's get past the semantics then.

    Pipes built by individuals with the knowledge to do so are designed and manufactured with certain (fairly widely accepted) criteria in mind, hoping to overcome or bypass certain physical problems one experiences in pipes that are NOT made this way.

    I can build a super, super shitty smoker, if anyone wants to buy one. And no one here would doubt it. Hell I could make a pipe you can't draw any air through at all if you want. Anybody want a two pipe set commission? One good one, one bad one, so they can see the difference??

    Posted 11 months ago #
  11. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    My father was an engineer. He designed parts and systems for planes, automobile engines, and a wide variety of other applications, starting with the B-17 and continued right up through Apollo and the Shuttles. One of his last bits of engineering, done when he was 84, was the design for a working nuclear reactor small enough to power a pacemaker. Making anything that works properly requires a level of engineering, whether it's life support, or a Rube Goldberg combination apple corer and ass kicker.
    If you're designing for function and following understood principles, or developing new principles, there's engineering involved, even if it's not at the level of an air bearing. Applied to pipe making it may seem a little grand, but it's not unjustified.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 11 months ago #
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    bigpond

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    Oh please, there was a time in the not too distant past when all of the refinement and artistry fell under the much valued heading of craftsmanship. Then some jackasses realized you could squeeze a few bucks from millennials by attaching that word to everything no matter which part of a Chinese factory it fell out of and now pipe makers need to be engineers to prove their worth.

    A couple years back someone, I think it was Jeff Gracik posted a link to a java file that explained the Bernoulli principle and flow dynamics on the pipemakers forum adding a pool of jargon to what those folks were already doing. Even by that time, US carvers had realized a trumpeted slot and thin bit was something they could offer to distinguish their pipes from average factory piece.

    But this is not new ground, it’s simply a return to way pipes were made in the old days. My ‘30’s Comoy has a thinner bit with a deeper and more polished slot than any of my artisan pipes, Actually, that’s not true. I have one pipe with a thinner bit. It’s thin enough to be translucent when a flash light is employed. Shame on me for not knowing I needed to check this on a hand made, artisan pipe. I even had to drill that one’s shank out too, but w/e. It’s engineered.

    No matter how well one engineers a straight line through a wood block, there’s no amount of needle filing that can accommodate an illseasoned block of briar. I guess this is going off the tracks now.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  13. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Well how else are you going to justify $7,000 for a piece of wood with two holes in it?

    Is there an element of pretentiousness to all of this? Sure, when you compare making a pipe to building a suspension bridge.

    Maybe Gracik is being sincere when he addresses the Bernoulli effect. Maybe it's showmanship to sell those pipes of his at high prices to rubes. Doesn't matter.

    But even very simple things have an element of engineering.

    Take the humble foil air bearing, which my father invented while working for Garrett:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_bearing

    Looks pretty simple. Not much to it. Turned out to be a revolutionary development. The principle was there. He was the first to see it and apply it.

    My father saw engineering as a component of many things, both exalted and humble. So do I. YMMV.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  14. chasingembers

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    Well how else are you going to justify $7,000 for a piece of wood with two holes in it?

    More money than sense?

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.
    -Edward Teach
    Posted 11 months ago #
  15. mso489

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    Word, word-usage, diction matters. Words can be used poetically, and that's okay, if it is made clear in context that that is what's being done. So no, tobacco pipes are not engineered. (My pet peeve is when scientists and medical people use schizophrenia to mean being of two minds, or psychiatrically, to mean split personality. The illness schizophrenia is neither of these, and the ignorance of a Ph.D., M.D., or M.D. Ph.D., using the word that way should come close to revoking their degrees. People who suffer from the illness don't need more stigma and confusion on them.) Brad, love the story about going offline -- I hope the "expert" learned from this and didn't just go off huffy. It might have been a moment of enlightenment, and we all need those.

    Posted 11 months ago #
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    bigpond

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    That’s pretty awesome Jesse! I agreee with your point. My post may have been a bit undercoffeed.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  17. tbradsim1

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    Jesse that's pure Genius, went to the Wikipedia site, so pure in thought.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  18. chasingembers

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    Take the humble foil air bearing, which my father invented while working for Garrett:

    Wow, that is brilliant.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  19. cosmicfolklore

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    Skip, pipemaker and owner of The Briary was reading a PIpes & Tobacco magazine and ranting when I walked in one day. “Pipemakers calling themselves ARTISTS now. How pretentious.”
    I wasn’t exactly sure what this was in reaction to, but I just couldn’t help but throw in my jab... “Whatever you call yourself, Skip, doesn’t matter. However... pretentious is charging $1000 and above for every pipe you make.” ...to the giggles and guffaws of the peanut gallery.

    Artists, engineers, yeh, it’s just two holes in a block of wood. I have asked every pipemaker who comes into the Briary about how they determine length and diameter of the draft in the shank to the length and diameter of the draft in the bit, from Ser Jacopo to Nording to Jeppesen. They all just seem to use whatever drill bit they are used to using, and they don’t seem to use any mathematical formulas to determine volume nor diameter nor anything else engineering related.

    I could dig a hole in the ground to set a pole, add my pole and pour in some concrete, and I’ve done just about as much engineering calculations as a pipemaker. That said, I think they rely more on magic than mathematics.

    Michael
    Posted 11 months ago #
  20. ashdigger

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    I have a degree in Bovine Excrement Engineering with a minor in Botanical Entropic Decay......want to see my compost pile?

    I deal with engineers all the time. Some are very good and some are just idiots who stuck it out in college. They all believe they are Forensic Engineers.....too bad that discipline doesn't exist.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  21. wyfbane

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    However they are made, some measure of magic is involved or we all wouldn't be so attached to them.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  22. saltedplug

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    I have searched at length on this and Pipemakersforum for any definition for exactly what engineering is, but what I found are many references to it, except the following by sasquatch on this forum:

    The standard sort of "American Artisan" thought on airway construction is "constant-volume". No bumps, no plenum space, just a perfectly smooth ride through the pipe, so no condensation points. Newcombe's physics setup is a little more in line with Bernoulli's laws (pressure of a moving gas is lower, the faster the gas moves). So you have a smaller airway out where the smoke is more likely to condense (the cold end of the stem), opening up in a larger (more turbulent) slot for final distribution to the tongue.

    To me this sounds like a constant diameter for the length of the shank, a narrowing at the tenon and a wider distribution/funneling for the length of an inch or more as it issues through the button. Since I am trying, by this thread, to be less ignorant about the airway, I will leave the evaluation of this definition for those qualified to address it.

    I must say, however, that I'm not sure I will ever warm to the term "engineering" to describe the crafting of an airway that involves the application of known principles and not their formulation or integration/sequencing to solve a problem. Now a term can be used in any way that speakers decide that they want to do so. Those in the know use the term according to that definition, and that's what is being done here. But I dislike it anyway as it is pretentious to describe crafting an airway, and strictly speaking has nothing to do with the skills required in the profession.

    More marketing/more greed. What else is new? So there.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  23. sasquatch

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    "Those in the know use the term according to that definition, and that's what is being done here. But I dislike it anyway as it is pretentious to describe crafting an airway, and strictly speaking has nothing to do with the skills required in the profession.

    More marketing/more greed. What else is new? So there."

    I spend about an hour on every pipe on the airway, making sure it terminates just so in the bowl, just so in the mortise. I match the funnel on the tenon to the smallest lower wall measurement on the end of the mortise, I saw, file, sand, and finally polish the airway in the stem, terminating it with a long deep v slot which itself terminates in a very small but definite rounded-over corner so as not to offend the tongue.

    Greedy, am I?

    You admit your own ignorance, Plug, and I love reading your stuff cuz it's just so... goddam silly. YOU don't care about a bunch of stuff, but it doesn't mean a bunch of other guys don't or shouldn't. But professing that you know anything about what's going on here is frankly pretty offensive to those of us who have worked ten years to make a pipe that some people consider acceptable.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  24. saltedplug

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    Because I don't like the term "engineering" doesn't mean that I call yours or any pipe makers skills into question, and in any case I said nothing disparaging about any maker. And I specifically lauded you for the one reference I could find that explicitly said what engineering means. I did say exactly why I dislike the term. I was very clear about what I meant and am not happy that you construe what I meant as a criticism. That you take the time to construct a fine airway is to your credit. Nothing in what I wrote except the unfortunate ending, which follows, says otherwise.

    I will admit that after saying why I don't like the term "engineering", all of which was very clear, I leapt into the unprovable and was perhaps downright wrong in saying that since I don't like the term, those who originated it had base motives. How do I know? I apologize.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  25. georged

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    Portions of this thread make me think (yet again) of how deeply the Monday Morning Quarterback Urge runs in some people.

    I recently watched a concert pianist tear up a Steinway's keyboard and marveled at the awesome manual dexterity on display, never mind that all that motion produced music. It's something pretty much everyone has seen at one time or another, but as simple as the concept is---finger motion = beautiful sound---I can't recall ever meeting anyone who said, "Yeah, I could do that."

    On the other hand, after decades around pipes, I have yet to NOT hear an incessant chorus of, "Pipes are simple... I could do that!" every time the discussion turns to the making of them.

    Yet, percentage-wise, each activity has about the same number of legitimate masters.

    Hm. You'd think there was a lesson there of some kind. But if so, it's one that few people seem to apprehend, never mind appreciate.

    In the meantime, those who can continue to DO, while those who have never tried continue to talk shit.

    Dogs live such short lives... and spend most it waiting for us to come home
    Posted 11 months ago #
  26. brian64

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  27. chasingembers

    Embers

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    I have made them, fixed them, and still talk shit.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  28. pepesdad1

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    "still talk shit." It's what we do, best.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  29. jpmcwjr

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    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 11 months ago #
  30. cosmicfolklore

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    Two holes in a block of wood... hammers are also simplr, maybe even more so. But, you have a range from a rock tied to a stick to ergonomic framming hammers that cost over $100. Pipes also range from corn cobs to a reed and a rock to works of magic.
    Most comments are about just what makes something engineered. To me, it brings to mind using mathematics to solve a problem, a formula of sorts, using science. A problem can be solved several different ways in making something.... creativity, science, tradition, or luck. I’m sure that a little of all of these are implimented by most pipemakers, but when one says that something was “engineered” that they forgo the creativity, tradition, and luck; and the opt for pure science. But, that’s just how I see it. Most likely the pipemakers saying “engineered” haven’t given the word as much thought. Or, maybe there are a few people out there using some sort of mathematical formula to control the flow of smoke.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  31. mso489

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    One engineer I knew (he's gone now) was a dynamo -- always remodeling something, an ardent yachtsman, and able to address all kinds of tech and mechanical repairs. But he also fell into the stereotype of being remarkably literal. One time he was part of a panel asked to discuss the experience of aging. I think it was meant to draw out reflections and philosphy of the experience, and all he could talk about were Social Security and Medicare type issues -- good information, but not the intended discussion. But he was good hearted, generous, and helped many people. Good guy, and totally an engineer.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  32. saltedplug

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    About half the time when serious discussion ensues, the thread dies because:

    a. someone gets their feelings hurt, often for little or no reason
    b. someone feels their expertise has been questioned
    c. some unelected potentate sweeps in and pronounces a verdict in this instance and for all eternity

    For these reasons I don't often raise such topics. What's the point if it's destined to go sideways? Yet a forum is one of the few places where such discussion might occur. How unfortunate that the typical muddle of human reality craps on this potential opportunity.

    Posted 11 months ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Are they engineers? Are they artists? Are they enginartists? We may just never know.

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 11 months ago #
  34. ashdigger

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  35. sasquatch

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    I think there's been all kinds of good answers about the usage of the term. There's people who agree that "engineering" isn't quite the right word, there's people who think that it does in fact apply. There's people who don't care what word is used but who appreciate (or in my own case attempt to utilize) certain nuances in fabrication that seem to make a pipe smoke better.

    The problem here is this assumption in your original post: "So. He drills a non-engineered straight line through the shank into the bowl, at the bottom and centered. No engineering here. But he does take extra time with the stem and uses a variety of tools to promote the airflow through it. He opens the stem but uses no engineering principles in doling so."

    It's bullshit. Nothing about making a pipe is this simple, or, if done this simply, the result would be tragic. I've mentioned Bernoulli, I might mention the Joule-Thompson effect, I might mention modelling in fluid dynamics of hot gases through plenum spaces.. but none of this will satisfy you because to you a pipe is a pipe, corn cobs identical to Castellos, and those the same as a rock with two holes drilled in it. Nothing anyone says here could change your mind, which is made up in the first place on a series of assumptions which are in fact not true.

    Nobody's feelins are hurt here, I protested a bit much in my last post because you are calling out the integrity of pipe makers who use the term "engineering".

    My expertise or George's (or anyone else who has hands-on experience with this stuff) is not unquestionable nor verdict-rendering, however, it is expertise. In George's words - you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion.

    No possible answer could satisfy you, Plug. Yes, I've calculated the difference in the velocity of the smoke and how that changes the pressure at the bit when I drill 11/64 vs 9/64 assuming the orifice remains constant there. Is THAT good enough? Is it engineered now? Maybe I just don't wanna tell you every single thing about how I make pipes or why I make them the way I do. And the truth is... it doesn't matter a bit if I've made that calculation, because all a guy has to do is try smoking the damn thing to see if it's any good. But that would be Empiricism and not Engineering I guess.

    Posted 11 months ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Dammit. Engineericists, then?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  37. sasquatch

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    Engineericismology. The longer the name, the more clout we have. And big hats are probably going to be mandatory.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  38. sasquatch

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    And just for giggles I'll add that Rad Davis always laughed at me when I used the term engineering, and would respond with "Toot toot!". So it's not like every pipe maker agrees on terms here either.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  39. jpmcwjr

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    Hell, I can make a pipe. Or could. And I can play the piano, too.

    But my piano piece is "Chopsticks" and my pipe would be similar, a piece of briar that would hold some tobacco and that could be smoked, but that nobody would love, not even my mother.

    I am in awe by the craftsmanship and thought that many carvers put into their creations.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  40. chasingembers

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    My family consist of artist, draftsmen, architects, woodworkers, and the like. I can make pipes, but in recent times have favored restoring them. I would consider pipe making more of an acquired skill than engineering. More of the work of a craftsman.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  41. warren

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    Peterson's original sump could be considered engineering. I'm sure there is engineering involved when something new in pipes emerges. The P-lip? Possibly. Twin bored pipes? Certainly. Radical deviations from the norm most likely require a bit of engineering. The original concept of a metal stem/base with screw on bowls surely involved some engineering. There was/is engineering strewn throughout the history of the pipe. Some odd shapes require engineering principals when determining "how in the hell" to get a drilled hole through a severely bent stem and into the proper position in the bowl. After the first, with proper tools now developed (engineered?), it's simply copying what went before.

    I think there is some engineering involved whenever something new is developed. After that, the mechanics are simply repeated and sometimes refined. Refining a design may or may not require a bit of engineering. However, miss drilling a hole is a ... mistake ... not engineering unless, of course, the mistake improves the product. Then the maker can puff out the chest and claim to have engineered an improvement.

    a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people
    b : the design and manufacture of complex products software engineering
    Merriam-Webster citation, underlining mine.

    A man without a shillelagh is a man without an expedient.
    Posted 11 months ago #
  42. captpat

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    Wow, 41 posts on pipes and engineering.

    I can't care less. What's important is whether a pipe smokes well, looks good and has an appropriately sized bowl. Whether it was fabricated by an engineer, artisan or a craftsman, or some combination is completely irrelevant.

    As an engineer I'll freely admit that fabricating a pipe is beyond my abilities, I do however hold those who do it well in high regard.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  43. bassbug

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    I can't care less. What's important is whether a pipe smokes well, looks good and has an appropriately sized bowl. Whether it was fabricated by an engineer, artisan or a craftsman, or some combination is completely irrelevant.

    I believe this whole thread was started after my provocative post about how a retailer described a pipe and the maker, using terms like "engineered" in the description to, (in my opinion), justify a price tag of almost $7,000 USD.

    I called BS on the whole thing and obviously started a whole debate here.

    I'm sorry...Not sorry

    I don't care who you are, you're not walking on the water while I'm fishing
    Posted 11 months ago #
  44. User has not uploaded an avatar

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    Thanks for sharing that story about Rad, Sas. Seems to have a great sense of humor.

    On another note, I’m kinda curious about what happens when 3D printed pipes are a thing.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  45. warren

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    It's simply a rehash of many other posts regarding engineering. Nothing new, same observations simply restated. It's a harmless debate, iterated, reiterated ad nauseam, which amuses some of us when we are particularly bored.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  46. cosmicfolklore

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    A mechanic can tell me that a deisel engine is the best engine possible, easy to fix, very little can go wrong with them, and blah blah blah, but I can still have my own opinion about engines. Engines, pipes, tobacco, tools, it really doesn’t matter. The whole reason for a forum is to engage in discussing things we enjoy. And, a topic like this where there is no correct answer is even better. Thanks for posting this Salt. As always, I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  47. crashthegrey

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    Opinions are like engineering in pipes, no one is certain if it is real or just in your head.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  48. woodsroad

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  49. jpmcwjr

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    Growing up, I wanted to be an engineer. Then they switched from coal burning locomotives to diesel, and I decided I wanted to be a pilot.

    [ /Emily Latella]

    Posted 10 months ago #
  50. mikethompson

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    I don't even know man.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  51. seacaptain

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    So, this is the infamous "engineering" thread? I was expecting more blood. Or any blood.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  52. jpmcwjr

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    Apparently PMs were in play, but that's just my supposition. Sob. I guess I'll never know.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  53. mikethompson

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    I will just add all this hoopla to the list of things I don't understand.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  54. cosmicfolklore

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    Hey, we can always start some shit. Anyone want to fight me? Bring it on you postmodern believers in made up stuff. I spit at your funny buildings and classical compositions. Perverts. Makes me sick!!!

    Posted 10 months ago #
  55. seacaptain

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    Hey, we can always start some shit. Anyone want to fight me? Bring it on you postmodern believers in made up stuff. I spit at your funny buildings and classical compositions. Perverts. Makes me sick!!! [:puffy:]

    Well darn. I wanted to fight you but then realized we're on the same team. Tell them there are only two genders, that will get them going.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  56. cosmicfolklore

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    "Them" I get the feeling that these people are also hipsters? We gotta hate hipsters... :::sigh::: where is Deathmetal when we need him?
    Of which, hipsters and postmodernists, I don't really know whether anyone I know is one of these. Is it like vegans or crossfitters, where they just come out and announce what they are when you meet them?

    Posted 10 months ago #
  57. kickinbears

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  58. seacaptain

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    Posted 10 months ago #
  59. sasquatch

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    If there were PMs in play, it wasn't me. I'm happy to be an abrasive asshole right out in public.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  60. sablebrush52

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    I thin I'll just keep dropping in links to posts until these threads collapse into a singularity and wink out:

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/longer-analytical-posts/page/2#post-1228817

    Posted 10 months ago #
  61. seacaptain

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    I thin I'll just keep dropping in links to posts until these threads collapse into a singularity and wink out:

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/longer-analytical-posts/page/2#post-1228817

    Posted 10 months ago #
  62. warren

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    I'm thinking of taking very different positions on the two threads as I have strong feelings on each side of the argument ... sorry, debate. I still can't resist asking a person who just advised me they are an engineer, "Amtrak, Southern Pacific, which company?" PE's, PC's, etc. can really get their panties in a bunch.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  63. cosmicfolklore

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    I probably posted this in the wrong thread, so... here it is again...

    The debate is not over, as far as I am concerned. Just having people say, yes there is calculating involved and specific principles and laws of physics, does NOT prove anything. This is still in the realm of opinion. Until someone explains a little better what the calculations are in determining draft hole diameter to length, and what the predetermined goal is. Flow, pressure, resistance?

    I use physics when putting in a fence post, using the hose to wash my car, the plumber uses all of this when plumbing my house. But, does that make me an engineer. With setting a fence post, you have to use leverage fulcrum to make sure that the hole is wide enough to whatever weight the concrete supplies, but I am not calculating this. I know that two feet deep is sufficient, more than. I have to use the same laws and principles when removing a bolt from an engine, but instead of calculating the amount of pressure I need to apply to the wrench, I just push or pull till it budges. Also, the bernoulli law is effecting my washing may car with the hose, but I am not calculating anything.

    I am not saying that there are no pipemakers using math and laws to equate diameters to length ratios for whatever their predetermined goal is. I am just saying that out of all of the influential pipemakers that I have talked with at the Briary and all of the pipes that I have seen by makers seem to all use a predetermined diameter to drill the shank and the stem. Of course there is more to it all than that. But, if the length of the draft is variable from pipe to pipe, and the length of stem is variable, if the pipemaker is truly using math to get some goal, then the diameter would be varied. Otherwise, they are just doing similar to me setting a pole in the ground for a fence. And, there is nothing wrong with that. But, using the term "engineering" means that they are calculating to get a desired effect.

    And, maybe some pipemakers do this. I don't doubt it. I am not posting to be an asshole, or to just argue. I truly enjoy this type of stuff, just as I would enjoy listening to engineers talk about balancing the new exhaust systm to the HP of the engine, or discussing calculating horsepower in general. Just as a car nut would enjoy this, pipe smokers would (I would think by the OP) enjoy listening to these engineering calculations being made. What is their goal? Is it flow, resistance, what is it? Enquiring minds....

    Now, we can say that sure physics is involved. I don't doubt that. We can just calling people names for not just taking the experts at their word. But, ultimately, the question is not answered.

    Pipes are amazing things. Simple, yet amazing. But, I know that there is much consideration put into these tools. I am not putting down pipemakers. I am just asking what is the difference between an engineered pipe to one built on tradition and attention to detail? What is the calculations being made, and could you explain how the calculations differ from a long pipe to a nosewarmer, and show me the evidence.

    Sure, sure, discount the questioner as disingenuous, but before we all take your word on it, explain to us how engineering affects one pipe design differently from another.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  64. seacaptain

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    I probably posted this in the wrong thread, so... here it is again...

    I got your back.

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/longer-analytical-posts/page/2#post-1228837

    Posted 10 months ago #
  65. warren

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    Michael, you do ... (see other thread)

    Posted 10 months ago #
  66. warren

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    this evening.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  67. cosmicfolklore

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    It was not answered there either. And, I responded there again also. I am just saying that debate is open still. Opinions can still be made, changed, or maybe we have an opportunity to learn something, especially mine.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  68. sablebrush52

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    Can there be engineering involved in an activity by people who are not engineers?

    One of my first matte paintings involved painting two rows of Spitfires arrayed on either side of a runway. In this instance, the painting was to be shot live on location, with the painting mounted on a stand that sat atop a 10 ft high platform. I needed to get the perspective and scale of the planes correct so that they appeared to sit on the ground and converge correctly in perspective as successive planes receded into the distance. They also needed to line up with live actors positioned on the ground along the runway such that it appeared that the actors were interacting with the painted planes.

    To do this I took measurements of the runway at Chino airport to start and while there, settled on a lens that would cover the area necessary to capture the action. I bought a scale model of a Spitfire and duplicated the location area on a table top in my office, in the same scale as the model, placing the center of my camera lens, in scale, at the same height the camera lens would be on the location. I placed a small piece of clear plastic, on which I had scored a grid, in scale, in front of my camera lens so that I could then draw the planes onto a sheet of paper in correct scale for the location set up.

    Distance of the painting from the camera was calculated based on the depth of focus for the lens I would be using, at the f-stop I would need to carry focus from the painting to infinity. This distance was then scaled down to match the scale of the model in my office mock up.

    Looking through the lens, I sketched the model, then moved it to the next position back, sketched that, and repeated until I had a sketch of two rows of Spitfires at the size I would need to photograph on the location. I then transferred that sketch onto the painting surface and painted the rows of spitfires.

    When I arrived at the location I mounted the painting onto its support on top of the platform and took a look through the camera. The planes lined up and scaled perfectly. They looked like they were sitting on the ground. Through the lens they appeared to be the correct size against the actors, who were about 60 feet more distant than the painting. I touched up some grass tones to match the real grass and we took the shot.

    I'm not an engineer, I'm a painter, but I think that I used some engineering to be able to shoot the needed plate live on location as an in-camera glass shot.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  69. davet

    davet

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    ^^ Fascinating ^^ What movie was this for Jesse?, just curious.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  70. sablebrush52

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    ^^ Fascinating ^^ What movie was this for Jesse?, just curious.

    It was for a feature length pilot for a series called "Tender Warriors". I think the year was 1977. The premise was thoroughly stupid, a group of nurses who fly secret missions across the Channel during WWII, and the series itself never got made.

    Posted 10 months ago #

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