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Early Era Sasieni 1-Dot Shape 19S

(27 posts)
  • Started 1 week ago by puffermark
  • Latest reply from ssjones
  1. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Plucked this off my local auction site. From what I can tell it is possibly pre-war. Since it doesn't have a patent number (as in the case of the pipes shipped to the US), I assume it was made for sale in Britain/Europe where Mr Dunhill's legal challenge to the use of the single dot was less successful than in the US, and production continued for longer. According to Pipedia the 'fishtail' stamping pegs it as being made during the tenure of Mr Sasieni Sr. before his son took over in 1946. Any assistance in narrowing down further would be very much appreciated.

    The before pics were cropped from the auction page, so not great quality, but I think you'll get the general picture. Best part? Got it for the equivalent of under 15$. Thanks for looking.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  2. ssjones

    ssjones

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    Great find! According to Pipephil, the One Dot on top was only made for a short time, between 1919-1924. No Patent numbers says it was made for the European market (I believe that only pipes bound for the US had the patent number).

    Al

    Posted 1 week ago #
  3. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

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    Not sure what we are looking at here, however,

    "Sasieni was not oblivious to the success Dunhill had achieved with its famous “White Spot” logo, and while he obviously couldn’t copy the logo exactly, he apparently saw no problem with reinterpreting it a bit. Therefore, each Sasieni pipe which came out of the factory had a single blue dot in the stem.

    Not surprisingly, the idea of their former employee competing with them using a very similar trademark didn’t exactly make Dunhill’s day. They threatened legal action in both the U. K. and the U. S.. Sasieni was saved in England by that country’s rather vague trademark laws, and the Sasieni One Dot continued to be produced for the European market for several decades."

    See also here. Look at the timeline noting 1924 and 1961.

    http://www.pipephil.eu/logos/en/infos/sasieni-timechart.html

    Dave
    Duke Street Irregular
    Posted 1 week ago #
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    paulfg

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    although the fishtail logo would place it pre 1946,wouldnt it?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  5. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

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    although the fishtail logo would place it pre 1946,wouldnt it?

    Yes, I would say so. It's the 19S that is throwing me a little bit...

    Posted 1 week ago #
  6. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

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    Great score, and fine resto!

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 1 week ago #
  7. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    The notion of a European 1 Dot being in use for decades really interests me. I've yet to see any verifiable proof of that and I'd love to. Steve Smith's article is wonderful, but he had the introduction of town names wrong by more than a decade. Has anyone seen and have a picture of a hallmarked one dot from the '30's or later?

    In any case, terrific score! What's the currency in the auction image?

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

    It is pointless to argue with a fanatic since a dim bulb can't be converted into a searchlight. - Jesse Silver
    Posted 1 week ago #
  8. tschiraldi

    tschiraldi

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    The dot was moved to the side in 1924. The "S" signified a saddle stem.

    Posted 1 week ago #
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    bayareabriar

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    I am still interested in the football shape made in England. I think that is a "later" style stamping as the earlier ones are linear and also say London made. I'd love to see dating on that stamping alone. The dot looks light blue... I'd say pre-war definitely if that's the case. I have a few four dots where the light blue dots are broken a little (little recessed) and they appear whiter.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  10. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

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    Here is a question I forgot to ask earlier, does the pipe have a stinger?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  11. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Thanks for all the comments and info, gents. Very much appreciated.

    The 19S does appear on a Sasieni shape chart as a 19S 'Pembroke' (see below), the 'S' denoting a saddle stem as stated above. This pipe would seem to pre-date the town name thing though, so I'm wondering when that started.

    The currency in the auction image is South African Rands (ZAR), curently trading at R14.19 to the $.

    Thanks again.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  12. greeneyes

    greeneyes

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    The Rand, ey? A few months ago I ordered some tobacco from Wesley's in South Africa. A couple of the blends were quite outstanding and I'm just waiting to get organized to order more. Africa has very unique tobacco and I can see why manufacturers like Samuel Gawith and Germain use it so often in their blends.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  13. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Here is a question I forgot to ask earlier, does the pipe have a stinger?

    Sorry, I missed that. Yes indeed and quite unusual in my experience in that it's quite big with a large ball at the end. I removed it since I can't abide the things.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  14. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    This pipe would seem to pre-date the town name thing though, so I'm wondering when that started.

    Town names began in 1923.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  15. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

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    Plucked this off my local auction site.

    Next question, was this pipe bought from someone in South Africa?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  16. alaskanpiper

    alaskanpiper

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    Lookin good all cleaned up. Nice little pipe.

    "We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that death will tremble to take us." ---Hank

    "Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man..." --- The Dude
    Posted 1 week ago #
  17. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Next question, was this pipe bought from someone in South Africa?

    Yes indeed. It came from Pretoria (now Tshwane) far North of where I am in Cape Town. A very rare find here. More common are the Sasieni made Sashar sub-brand (of which I have 7, all great smokers) and which were, I believe, made specifically for the South African market. Certainly it's the only one dot of which I am aware. One of of my pipe club members has a couple of 4 dots, but I believe they were all sourced from overseas, whether from the US or UK I'm not sure.

    Going by my experience of collecting locally, I would guess it somehow reached our shores from the UK, or less likely from elsewhere in Europe. I am not aware that other 'main brand' Sasienis were imported or sold by local dealers (aside from the aforementioned Sashars).

    I'll shoot off a mail to the seller and ask if he has any further info.

    Thanks again for all the interest. Great hobby this.

    Posted 1 week ago #
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    jguss

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    Puffer, does the stinger have any numbers or letters stamped on it?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  19. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Not that I can see, jguss. But here's a couple of pics of the contraption. Looks like the idea was that it would be able to pass a cleaner in situ as it were, but just how well that would work, I don't know.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  20. ssjones

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    Very interesting. I would have assumed the stinger was a threaded, screw-in piece. The friction fit were more commonly found on the sub-brands (like Sashar mentioned above). Does the tenon have threads inside it? I suppose the stinger could have been put in the wrong pipe at some point. Did the seller have other pipes for sale?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  21. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Very interesting. I would have assumed the stinger was a threaded, screw-in piece. The friction fit were more commonly found on the sub-brands (like Sashar mentioned above). Does the tenon have threads inside it? I suppose the stinger could have been put in the wrong pipe at some point.

    I have both 4 and 8 Dots that came with either a fixed or a removable stinger, so I suspect that there wasn't a hard and fast rule. As for passing a pipe cleaner, that was only possible when you removed the stem and worked the cleaner through the side hole. The "pipe cleaner" litmus test is kind of bullshit standard.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  22. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Does the tenon have threads inside it?

    Nope. Friction fit as far as I can tell, although it needed some heating (heat gun) to dislodge it, probably due to hardened tobacco gunk more than anything else.

    The "pipe cleaner" litmus test is kind of bullshit standard.

    Totally agree. But there were a a bunch of wacky ideas/patents back then.

    Posted 1 week ago #
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    jguss

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    Patent numbers were used in the markets for which the patent had been granted (i.e. a UK patent number was stamped on a pipe sold in the UK, and the equivalent US patent number was stamped on a pipe shipped to the US); moreover I believe such pipes were marked only during the period the patent was in force. There may be exceptions to this practice, but it was the case often enough with other manufacturers that I suspect it was the rule.

    In this case it looks to me like the stinger matches patent GB213201 applied for by Joel Sasieni in the UK on January 29, 1923, which was the equivalent of patent number US1513428 granted in the US on October 28, 1924. Since at that time patent life in the UK was 14 years from application, and in the US 17 years from grant, UK sold pipes would have been stamped with the patent number through early 1937, while US sold pipes would have been stamped through the fall of 1941. Note that in the UK it was possible to apply for a 7 year extension of the patent (which would have extended the expiration date to early 1944), but I have found no evidence that Sasieni attempted this.

    In sum, the patent applied to the stinger, not the dot; the stinger is original to the pipe and matches patents granted in both the UK and the US; and the lack of a patent stamp suggests to me that the pipe dates to a time after these patents expired, i.e. 1937 or later. Given the fishtail logo the likely range is approximately 1937-1946, with war-related disruptions making a date of 1937-1939 more likely.

    Incidentally, if you want to see an example of a pipe stamped with a UK patent number, see Ashdigger's one dot here: http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/sasieni-one-dot-w-script-w-patent-w-stinger-pic-heavy. It's clearly marked with the number for an earlier UK patent that protected an earlier version of a stinger: GB150221/20. The 150221 on the shank is the patent number of course, and the suffix /20 denotes the year of the patent.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  24. dmcmtk

    dmcmtk

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    What jguss above makes a lot of sense as to the dating of the pipe. My issue about the shape number 19S Pembroke Saddle Stem is that these shape codes (usually seen on Sasieni "Seconds") correspond to the introduction of the Four Dots with town names. What is typically seen on early One Dots are completely different shape numbers, if any numbers at all.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  25. puffermark

    puffermark

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    Many many thanks, gentlemen, especially jguss for all the research. Once again you prove yourselves to be a remarkable resource and a wealth of knowledge.

    I think this one's going to enjoy a special place in the rack. I had a bowl of GLP Gaslight in it yesterday and it's a cracking smoker.

    One more remark, it is a quite a large pipe, which can to a degree be seen by the size relative to the pipe stand. It therefore shows no sign of the paucity of briar during the war years. That to me would seem to underscore jguss's probable estimation on 1937 - 39.

    Thanks once again.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  26. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    It's clearly marked with the number for an earlier UK patent that protected an earlier version of a stinger: GB150221/20.

    That particular patent number was used right up to 1950.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  27. ssjones

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    As always, great detective work Mr. Guss! I asked Ash to post a few close-up shots of his pipe stinger in that linked thread.

    Posted 1 week ago #

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