Do Sasieni Buyers/Collectors Care about Stingers?

buroak · Dec 15, 2015

As someone with one foot in the Britwood world and the other in the realm of KBB/Kaywoodie, I have often wondered why Sasieni buyers/collectors, in stark contrast to the Kaywoodie crowd, seem to care little about the absence of stingers in patent era Sasieni pipes. I suspect there may be a behavioral difference between the Sasieni "buyer" who just wants to own an early Sasieni (and who may not even know what the patent numbers reference) and the Sasieni "collector" who is more purposive in their acquisition of the marque's pipes. When I look at the outcomes of eBay auctions, however, I see little evidence to confirm my suspicions. So, I am eager to hear the thoughts of Sasieni faithful. Do stingers matter to you?

dmcmtk · Dec 16, 2015

I would say, that from a true collectors point of view, they matter, no question. I have three pipes that fall into this category, two One Dots, that I ended up owning mostly just by chance, and an Eight Dot that I deliberately pursued, see below. I also have a post-war Patent Four Dot Amesbury that ended up not having the stinger and it doesn't bother me as I smoke it like any other pipe. I've removed the hardware from numerous "seconds" because it does open up the draw.

dmcmtk · Dec 16, 2015

I should also say, I do not consider myself a "collector", the great majority of Sasieni pipes that I own are "seconds" Old England, Royal Stuart, Friar, Mayfair, etc. I only have five Four Dots, Amesbury, Stamford, Pembroke S, Cromer, and Regent.

sablebrush52 · Dec 16, 2015

Collectors do care about the stingers if the pipe came equipped with one. Condition being equal,a pipe with everything will go for a little more. But some of my 8 Dots clearly never had a stinger. The tenon wouldn't allow for one.
Beautiful pipe, Dave!

buroak · Dec 16, 2015

Dang, Dave, I forgot what this thread was about. Humdingers, was it?
On your advise I have bought a few seconds in shapes that would cost way too much if they had dots. I have never found one that still had any kind of stinger.

Condition being equal,a pipe with everything will go for a little more(emphasis mine).

So, they matter to collectors, but not as much as the Drinkless stinger matters to Kaywoodie aficionados. Is that a fair statement?

But some of my 8 Dots clearly never had a stinger. The tenon wouldn't allow for one.

I have a mysterious One Dot that I am not sure ever had a stinger. The stem is, I am nearly 100% certain, a replacement, but the length of the mortise seems too short given the length of the shank. I was under the impression that Sasieni stingers made for the top-of-the-line pipes varied in length depending on the dimensions of the shank. If only the pipe had a shape number...

sablebrush52 · Dec 16, 2015

So, they matter to collectors, but not as much as the Drinkless stinger matters to Kaywoodie aficionados. Is that a fair statement?

Well, I can't speak for other collectors, but I suspect that it is a fair statement. One can hardly think of a Kaywoodie without thinking about the Synchrostem, though Kaywoodie made pipes without stingers.
I'm not sure when Sasieni started using the ball ended stinger, as I've seen a few early pipes with what looks like a wintube, to use another Kaywoodie term. I have a couple of early Kaywoodies fitted with their wintubes. Nice little pipes those early Kaywoodies.

I was under the impression that Sasieni stingers made for the top-of-the-line pipes varied in length depending on the dimensions of the shank.

That's correct. Stinger length and ball diameter vary according to the shape and circumference of the shank. The ball on the "Amesbury" is smaller than on the "Norfolk". Both are smaller than the "Marlow" or the "Blyth". There is no stinger on the "Melton" and the tenon wouldn't have allowed for one. This pipe, BTW, had been smoked only once or twice when I acquired it. The mortise on the 1941 military isn't wide enough for a stinger, nor would the military type stem have allowed for it. The "Moorgate" is clearly missing its stinger, which was not the permanently fixed type.

buroak · Dec 16, 2015

I have a military mount Sasieni with a stinger, but I think I remember seeing yours in another thread, and the pipes' dimensional differences probably account for why one has a stinger and the other does not. This discussion gives me new food for thought on my mystery Sasieni. I will post some photos later.

Nice little pipes those early Kaywoodies.

I have recently learned a couple of small but significant things about early Kaywoodies. The nudge of your comment reminds me that I need to put that information in the Kaywoodie Collectors Thread.

ssjones · Dec 16, 2015

So, they matter to collectors, but not as much as the Drinkless stinger matters to Kaywoodie aficionados. Is that a fair statement?

Based on pipes that sell, that seems to be the case.

buroak · Dec 16, 2015

Here are photos of the mystery Sasieni. Unless they made a tiny stinger, I do not know how this pipe would ever have had one. A "wintube" or "inner tube" maybe, but a stinger would be a tight fit.
Pardon the mess, please, the pipe still requires some work on the stem.
The metal band is odd. I can see no cracks, and wood seems to have been removed to place it. The band really breaks up the lines from shank to stem.

The dot is not the usual, lighter blue. The dot is also small compared to the few other One Dots I have seen.

The end of the shank is beveled going into the mortise.

The nomenclature includes no shape number, "Made in England", or patent stamps. I know that may mean nothing, but I want to head off any questions about what is stamped.

The tenon is clearly stepped, and has a shoulder where it meets the stem body.

I used a standard cotton swab to crudely gauge the depth of the mortise. The distance between the brown and black lines is the rough measurement of that depth.

A comparison of the stem on this pipe with the stubby stinger for a short-shanked military mount Sasieni makes me question how this pipe could have had a stinger.

At this point the obvious solution to the mystery is to declare the pipe a fairly well-repaired specimen with a shortened shank and a replacement stem. The placement of the nomenclature "bar", however, looks pretty spot-on, keeping in mind the band covers part of the shank.

sablebrush52 · Dec 16, 2015

If the stem is a replacement, it's perfectly done, as the taper on the stem follows the taper of the shank. If this was a mid '20's stem, I might expect to see an orific slot, but semi orifics as well as wide slots, had been in use since the turn of the century and before. The length of the shank doesn't look like it was shortened, given the position of the stampings. If it was, it must have been slight. I suppose it's possible that the shank was shortened to remove a crack and the sterling band added to protect against a recurrence. It's equally possible that the shank wasn't shortened and that the sterling was added as an adornment. The line up of the shank to the stem looks right, which wouldn't be the case if the stem had been shortened, unless the stem is a replacement. Interesting mystery.
Do you have a wintube or Dunhill fitment that you try to slip in the tenon opening? Might provide an answer.

buroak · Dec 16, 2015

Interesting mystery.

I think that is what it will remain. Thanks for weighing in. You have certainly seen more early Sasienis than I.
I tried a Dunhill inner tube and a few other generic tubes. All were too large in diameter to fit in the tenon.

dmcmtk · Dec 17, 2015

A question, is the "metal band" sterling? I ask because it could be possible it was put on the pipe merely for ornamentation. The shape looks like either what would become the Liverpool (62), or the Renfrew (25). The slot on the stem looks correct, the Dot, however, does look very blue... I don't think I've ever seen an orific bit on any early Sasieni pipes. The pipe below, I'm quoting myself from the Sasieni article at Murder of Ravens, the pipe is marked,

Sasieni, in the pre-war style, over “RUSTIC” over London Made, over Made in England. To the left of these marks the number 89 and to the right SS A or 55 A. No patent numbers. The stem has no dots, but still has the stinger. If I understand the article, would it be correct in assuming that pipes sold in the UK did not have Patent numbers? The stem has been replaced, with the stinger having been kept...my conclusion is this was a one dot pipe for the English market.

This pipe is what would become the Amesbury/Cheltenham shape (44).
Maybe the 1930's catalog would be better to consult...
http://chriskeene.com/sasp1

buroak · Dec 17, 2015

Dave, The band looks to be sterling, but I am not certain. The dot is the most suspicious part of the pipe. Since very early Sasienis have the patent number only on the stem, the absence of a patent number stamp on the stummel means nothing for my pipe. About a year ago I searched for a precedent for my pipe's dot. All I found was an eBay listing that smelled of feces passed through a four-chambered bovine stomach. By the way, I paid nothing like $355 for my pipe.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-1920-EARLY-JOEL-SASIENI-PRE-PATENT-034-ONE-DOT-034-LONDON-MADE-034-RUSTIC-034-MASTERWORK-/161002517321?nma=true&si=zpeYL8lfsCu7qOUZvfzEKQBhIRI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Same as above but preserved by worthpoint.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1919-1920-early-joel-sasieni-pre-435222556

dmcmtk · Dec 17, 2015

It has a long stemmed (sic) supplied with a blue "One Dot" inlaid logo on the top of the mouthpiece in vulcanite.

Even from the one picture on Worthpoint, the dot looks too large to be original.
My other One Dot, the lighting in the pictures isn't that great, but you can get a sense from them, and the Eight Dot above, the pale color of the dots. As you can see, this stem has an issue. :wink:

dmcmtk · Dec 17, 2015

And another interesting pipe, a Double Side Dot Specially Selected a friend of mine found at an antiques shop. Let's just say he was able to sell it for more than the $20 he paid for it... :wink:

buroak · Dec 17, 2015

Dave, My only other One Dot (assuming I truly have more than one), has a dot just like the one in your photos. As is the case with yours, the One Dot of which I am certain was acquired by chance. Regarding the links, I am relying more on the seller's description than the photos. Specifically, this portion of the eBay link:

3. The blue "One Dot" inlaid logo is on the top of mouthpiece, and its diameter is very small.

Not much to go on, but a mystery can be fun in its own right. Adam

dmcmtk · Dec 17, 2015

I may stand corrected, could just be the blur in the WP picture.

buroak · Dec 17, 2015

Damn, Dave, how was he able to bring himself to sell it? Money talks, but what I know of psychology in general, and of my own in particular, says that a pipe like that is hard to let go.
I am glad I was typing while you were posting - I would have lost my train of thought. I am not truly a Sasieni guy, but some of these early pieces stop me in my tracks.

buroak · Dec 17, 2015

By the way, I think the Renfrew is the most likely shape of my pipe.

orlandofurioso · Mar 7, 2016

Hi Buroak,
Do you consider both listings "oafish" ? Seems to me that at least Piero is a trusted seller with some knowledge ?

I still feel confused about the early Sasieni one dots. I just recently purchased an oldie on the Bay.

Apparently it went almost unseen and I was the only bidder. Would like to read your opinion; it only accomodates the old logo and the London made stamp, no patent or shape nr, no town name. From the somewhat unclear pictures I cannot detect a patentnr. on the stem. Small blue dot on top.

I bow to your better knowledge ; thank you for the always elaborate posts

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131737451708?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Do Sasieni Buyers/Collectors Care about Stingers?

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Site Sponsors

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

The Bard Of Barlings

Lifer

The Bard Of Barlings

Lifer

Moderator

Lifer

The Bard Of Barlings

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer