Determining Balkan Sobranie production dates

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beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,063
6,118
Central Ohio
kola-

This is the best I can do:

http://loringpage.com/pipearticles/tobdatepaper.html
Balkan Sobranie
Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, Sobrainie House appear to date from the 1970's or earlier;

Tins labled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, 17 Worship Street appear to date to the '70s for a brief time just after 'Sobranie House';

Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, Chichester Road appear to date from the late 1970s;

Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 65 Kingsway appear to date to the early 1980's;

Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 34 Burlington Arcade appear to date to the 1980's; and

Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 13 Old Bond Street date to the 1990's.

Balkan Sobranie was imported by James Russell so as discussed earlier the Russell addresses are also useful for dating. (a Sobranie tin paper with a Russell '56th St' address & a Sobranie '17 Worship St' address has been found in a Sobranie 'Sobranie House' painted knife lid tin)

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
That Loring index pretty much sums it up.
For the pre-70's stuff, see the comprehensive dossier by Jon Guss,

An Appendix on the dating of Sobranie Tobacco Tins

which sets a benchmark for tobacciana scholarship and is extremely well done,

it covers just about everything ever made by Sobranie House...

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/vintage-project-publications/

 

kola

Lifer
Apr 1, 2014
1,484
2,339
Colorado Rockies, Cripple Creek region
This one is up on ebay but I am still baffled. The seller says its from the seventies because that is when he bought it. ??

The only thing I found from the Loring index was this : "weight labeled only in grams strongly suggests the 1980s to present, although it should be noted that Republic of Ireland tins dating to the 1940's and 1950's may be found measured only in grams."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Balkan-Sobranie-original-early-70s-sealed-/311569166039?hash=item488af82ed7:g:UpsAAOSwv9hW6vNQ

 

beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,063
6,118
Central Ohio
Those tins that were issued in Europe are confusing. I've found many inconsistencies in them. I think Loring's work was mainly for tins in the USA??

That tin looks to me to be 1970's. I would contact the seller and ask what the writing is around the rim, you can't see it in the photos. It should have the address listed, which may correspond to Loring's data.......... I'm no expert, but I love a good mystery...... :D

Maybe Pipestud will chime in too- He has a lot of knowledge on this subject...........

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,831
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Memories are tricky things, and not often accurate. Your tin could have been purchased as early as the early 1980's, but not earlier because the weight is expressed in grams and it's a coin twist top. Forget about Loring. Look at the Guss article that MLC mentioned.

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
From reading the Guss Appendix,

I'd vote for 1979 and after since it's a gram tin, although very odd at a 40g weight,

and on the right side it looks like it may have a German (or other country) tax stamp seal and those are usually useful for dating, write him and ask for a pic of the tax stamp (if indeed that is what I'm seeing)...
...but like Beefeater said, the Euro tins are tricky.
...the last tin he sold was in better condition and he said it was from a 5 pack (most likely from a duty-free airport shop),

it sold for a relative bargain considering how this stuff swings in the market:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Balkan-Sobranie-original-Vintage-Tobacco-tin-unopened-/311516746339?hash=item4887d85263%3Ag%3A1uMAAOSwwPhWiA-1&nma=true&si=xIsUHo6MeM8ug05hc2l6jG%252BjqFE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
.

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
Yeah, the 40g sticker is weird, probably a typo from the distributor? Maybe.
I think Sable is right and it's most likely from the 80's.
This pair from France looks to be from the same era, complete in original duty-free packaging,

pretty damn neat...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-two-tins-of-vintage-pipe-tobacco-The-Balkan-Sobranie-s-Smoking-Mixture-/201545517233?hash=item2eed0c88b1:g:ckEAAOSwvFZW7rh7
...that particular seller has a good clutch of many of the beloved classics on offer,

a pretty good array and I'm glad that I'm not too big on any of those heavy hitters because they always draw major coin!

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
I forgot to add here that I once scored a bargain tin of this stuff from the same era --- I had written a lady who was listing a tin and gave her info and let her know how valuable it was, her listing was all screwed up, and from there we communicated a good bit with warm interaction and she told me she was selling 8 of them for an old neighbor of hers, she sold me one at a sweet discount rate!
My tin appears to be from the same era as the ones listed in these auctions, there is no address info on the tin nor the paper insert, and adding to the confusion is a wax pencil cellar marking written 1976, but the style of tin clearly points to '79 and after, only further reinforcing what sable said "...Memories are tricky things, and not often accurate."...
...it's odd stuff indeed!
The tin that I got was indeed very good, I prefer a muted Lat though as the exotic no-longer-available Orientals of yore shine through better, but this stuff actually still had a rather big Lat hit, I much preferred my other experience with a late 60's cutter-top and the depths of the Yenidje and etc. was truly incredible and like nothing else I've ever experienced...
...anyway,

here's that bargain 80's tin:
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lAKZY1J.jpg


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Oh1m8hL.jpg


IANtYHY.jpg


 

beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,063
6,118
Central Ohio
MLC-

Doesn't the paper insert on your tin date this to the 70's??

I thought the "Sobranie Limited" was a determining factor, according to Loring?

Or have we determined Loring's work to be in error?.........

Confusing stuff fer sure!!....... 8O

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
MLC-

Doesn't the paper insert on your tin date this to the 70's??

I thought the "Sobranie Limited" was a determining factor, according to Loring?

Or have we determined Loring's work to be in error?.........

Confusing stuff fer sure!!....... 8O
That's a very good point.
Maybe it's '78 or '79?
Jon mentions tin evolution as being one of the more sketchy indicators and I tend to agree, because during any transistion period stocks of earlier tins (and inserts) would have surely continued to be used until they were depleted and wholly replaced with the updated design...
...but yes,

it's all very confusing and one more reason why among many I greatly prefer the cutter-top tins!

Easier to accurately date as well as being so utterly romantic and much more fun to open!
As for Loring,

I hold him in the ever highest of esteem, a true giant upon whose shoulders we all stand, and rightfully acknowledged by Jon Guss as such as well in his Appendix.
John Loring was an incredible man and his body of hyperfocused work remains unmatched yet still methinks.
:puffy:

 

beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,063
6,118
Central Ohio
stocks of earlier tins (and inserts) would have surely continued to be used until they were depleted and wholly replaced with the updated design...

I didn't think of that, but yes, that's a great point.

one more reason why among many I greatly prefer the cutter-top tins!

Easier to accurately date as well as being so utterly romantic and much more fun to open!
AMEN Brother!!...... :puffy:

 
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