'Brand' Value - Est. Common Ground

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12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
I was going to give up on the "brand" debate. But then on the way home I remembered I was out of Jack Daniels and changed course for the liquor store.
Inspiration (and I hadn't even opened it yet). We don't seem to be using the word brand the same way. Could be some people are using it as a synonym for hype. I would not define one with the other. Closest I can get is describing "hype" is impression created by shallow, short-lived branding gimmickry.
Jack Daniels is a good example of "brand." My favorite whisky? No. But for me, a good value. It's brand is worth the money (less than half what I pay for my single malt scotches).
Brand, the way we use the term here, can't be created through branding. Brand is the connotation evoked by a product's name or logo, derived from the collective experience of customers over time. Customers, collectively, create a company's brand. It's what we're after when we say, "But what does Jack Daniels 'mean'?"
I think liquors and tobaccos might be too tough for examples, though, especially after the threads already here. So at this point in my thinking tonight, I switched to pondering further about things I write about, in respect to brands.
I write for the construction, mining and drilling industries.
What does "Cummins diesel" mean to you? To me, it conjures up images of just about every piece of equipment Americans put diesel engines in. Generators, power packs, light towers, wheeled and crawler carriers (Could have used Deere, too, I guess. So many products offer you a choice of one or the other).

- Manufacturers here trust Cummins, so they don't need to make their own engines.

- They know their clients "know" and trust Cummins. It advances your own brand to offer Cummins in your machines.

- They know that just about anywhere in North America you go, there's someone with Cummins parts and mechanics who can service them. Better uptime means you have the confidence of *your* customers, if you equipment is powered by a Cummins.
Those are important brand points.
Case, CAT... same thing.
Stop. Do CAT. Man, I wish we represented them. They are 10 times bigger than our biggest client. Baby! I wish I wrote for them. Just because of size???
Size is part of their brand appeal. You can find a Caterpillar dealer just about anywhere. You won't be stuck if you need parts or service or a technician or a loaner. Minimized downtime equals higher customer confidence. But there's more. Legendary customer support, for one. Your experience may have varied. But brand is not about "one person's perception." It's a collective customer experience. Over a long period of time. And overall, CAT customer support... is legendary. When I'm in Canada, some northern, remote spot, there will be a Caterpillar technician. The company is standing by its equipment. He/she almost loses the CAT identity to become part of the customer's company -- until payroll goes out.
The jaded among us will say, "It's because the POS machine will break down." Don't know if you've been around construction sites much, but, it *all* breaks down. And CAT stuff with a dedicated technician on the site, working as if he/she were part of your company, means things are serviced properly. Wear points are being monitored. Things are being cared for, swapped out, replaced ... *before* they break down. And he/she is doing it on scheduled downtime whenever possible.
That concept of "partnership" (we aren't successful unless *you* are successful) is a huge part of the brand. Not just "sell and run," but a sort of welcome into the CAT family. We make "our" business making your business successful" and "We won't let you down."
That's not hype. They're really backing that up.
Does every company do that? Well, they *should*. But there were other makes and models up there with no one. In fact, one popular brand was "kicked off the site" because the company was so frustrated that the company wouldn't help them. They had *hyped* that they had close customer support "just like CAT." In reality, their branding trick backfired. (And not just once. That company is on the rocks. It has support trouble all over North America). The company service agreement stipulated a technician on site caring for that equipment. But, that sad brand's tech never showed. And wasn't replaced. And no rep could tell the company when they could get one out there. See, they couldn't support their equipment in civilized areas, let alone remote areas.
Oh oh. Brand fail. But not CAT. CAT, as requested, had a technician living two out of three weeks on site with the construction contracting company's crews. AND helping the company's own technicians with their projects, just because he was caught up on his own work.
That's an important brand distinction, right there. Right now, in construction equipment, many other manufacturers would kill to have CAT's reputation for customer service. Toughness. Dependability. Availability. Longevity. Across-the-board design similarities -- training new operators is easier, and their skills are transferable.
That's the CAT brand. (And Ingersoll Rand's, and Atlas Copco's... brands that MEAN customer service, top grade equipment, global support, historically good records of quality).
Guess what the others do? They use "branding" to try to imitate CAT. For some it backfires; for others, they become an inexpensive alternative.
Maybe you also like its name. Or have *come* to like its name. Maybe you're loyal to it, also like its livery (color scheme/design). Maybe you hate it. But that's the CAT brand. It's been the CAT brand for a long time. It will be the CAT brand for quite a while yet. That inspires confidence.
It's such a dependable brand that when it bought Terex Redrill (think blasthole drilling crawlers), some people scratched their head, saying, "CAT isn't a blasthole drill brand." But construction, mining and quarrying companies got excited. CAT is going into the drilling business! They know that if CAT bought it, just you wait, it is committed to expanding its offerings with CAT brand. And it will *make* this drill a CAT. Five years. Ten years. It's scary to other drill manufacturers because CAT is a brand identity they can't compete with. CAT lives up to its brand image -- or it would lose its brand image. And people who like CAT can't wait until they have drill rigs that slide into their CAT fleet with the same "brand" expectations that they have for other CAT equipment in their fleets.
This make any sense yet? Was it a good example?
Brand isn't just about material. Two companies can build a bulldozer out of the same material.

It's isn't just about color scheme or name.

It isn't just about production capability.

It isn't *just* about customer service.
It's the whole she-bang -- reliably delivered for a long time. You can copy all those brand points and issue them as your own brand -- but people will suspect you can't live up to them (and you probably can't) but are just a poser company.
Does any of that transfer to tobacco pipe brands? Even a little?
If not, I promise, I quit on the subject.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Should be said, too, that you don't always need the brand-name product. Contractors don't buy the best drill bits they can find if they're only going to use it once for a short hole and then sell it for scrap or stand it in the corner till they need it again.
Not every pipe I own needs to be a fancy, expensive brand name. If any. It's not the way I smoke.
But when someone pays $300 for a pipe I respect that -- and envy him a little for it. I wish he were Santa Claus and he found that on that one day I was good. But I'm not good, he's not Santa, and I make brand tradeoffs for what I think is a value for "me." MMs and GBs work for me (and two Savs... one an old, old thing I had restored because of its sentimental value to me ... otherwise, repairing a low-end Sav is ... questionable economics, since replacing he stem was already a third the cost of it new).

 
Dec 24, 2012
7,195
456
I don't know about the pipe connection, but I love CAT. My father sold Caterpillar equipment for 45 years at one of Canada's largest dealers. At his funeral a couple of years back, a number of acquaintances came up and told me that he was a walking encyclopedia of Caterpillar tractors - knew virtually every part number off the top of his head. As a kid I traveled with him a few times to Peoria, where CAT is headquartered. He would talk CAT for hours while I was bored stiff, lol. It was like they were speaking a different language.
I own a bunch of CAT stock, much of it inherited from my Dad, and I think they are a fantastic American company.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
My brother works at one of the CAT parts plants in Booneville, Missouri. I brought them up because of our huge respect for them, and because I wasn't comfortable talking about our actual clients. Not sure of the ethics of that.
Here are other very respectable, established brands who I think live up to their brand:
- John Deere Industrial Diesel Engines

- Peterbilt Motors

- HammerHead Trenchless Equipment (amazing technology, amazing people)

- Ditch Witch

- Dynapac Road Equipment

- Atlas Copco (tops in customer support, renown for air compressors and rock drills)
Other than industrial. Some not so long-lived yet, but firmly established
- Apple Computers

- Google

- Nikon & Canon (no fighting, now -- but Nikkor lenses, wow!)

- Ford F150

- Chevy

- Dodge Ram

- Cessna Aircraft (especially the Skyhawk, though I started out in Pipers)

- Dr. Dre (headsets... wow, the clarity and comfort... wear mine all day)

- Stihl chainsaws (currently have the Farm Boss... live in Minnesota, coldest year for a long time, always started, keep in unheated garage)

- Stationary tools: Delta, Grizzly

- Dremel rotary tools

- Kreg jigs (wood joinery -- several copycats, but get Kreg)

- Weatherby (mine's a shotgun, the 12 ga. SAS -- perfect marriage of form and function, like their rifles)

- Ruger (never heard of a bad Ruger... ugly ones, yeah -- but Ruger hangs back, studies the market, then exceeds it at low price point. Have you held the SR1911 in your hands yet? It's like they studied the design, showed how it could be done best, then shaved it down to $670)

- Smith & Wesson -- particularly anything from the M&P Series

- Glock -- despite the fact the grips don't fit my hand, so I don't own any -- Glock lives up to its billing (just that M&P is so much prettier, and fits me)
Many more. But these are examples where a brand image is supported by collective customer experience. Most people's experience bears out that the brands are meeting their promise, customer expectations are met.
You have to rule out this or that individual experience. Brand is bigger than one person's perception. Brand is earned.
I think you see that with pipes.
I think you see that with tobaccos.

 

cuchulain

Starting to Get Obsessed
Feb 28, 2014
215
0
Massachusetts
Stihl? Heretic. Husqvarna is where it's at.
Other than that I am always in awe of your posts. I wish I could write half as well as you.

 

petes03

Lifer
Jun 23, 2013
6,212
10,653
The Hills of Tennessee
+1 Husqvarna! Over the years, I've ran many chainsaws including Stihl, Poulan and many more. Some good ones, and some lemons, but my Husavarna is one badass saw!

As for guns, I own and have owned many, and I've shot countless other guns that I didn't own. But by far the toughest one I've ever owned/shot is my Mossberg 835 3-1/2" magnum 12ga!

I bought that gun years ago specifically to duck hunt with.
What got me to buy it was my duck hunting buddy. He had a 935, which is the semi-auto 3-1/2" gun.

The first time I went hunting with him, we were wading in waist deep sub 40 degree swamp water and he proceeded to stick his shotgun down in the water and mud up against a tree with nothing more than the last 4" of the barrel sticking up!

I looked at him and said "Have you lost your damn mind?"

He just laughed and said " It's a Mossberg, it'll be alright!"
Well, soon enough, along came some ducks. He jerked the gun up, water and mud falling off of it, and fired three shots without a problem!

He later said that he hadn't taken his gun apart to clean it in years, and that he'd never had a misfire!
When we got done that day, I said "Let's take that thing apart, and see what it looks like!"

When we did, it was full of mud, sticks, grass and God knows what else! Needless to say, I wanted a Mossberg!
So, I went and bought my 835, which is the pump version.

Now, many years later, that gun has been to hell and back on many many occasions, and has never missed a lick!

It's been used as a wading staff, a snake bashing club, a paddle, an ice busting stick and countless other things that it was not designed to do!

The gun has had countless thousands of magnum shells put through it as well, and keeps on going!

It's the only gun I own that doesn't get pampered, and the only thing I've ever done to it is spray a little Rem-oil in it now and then, and tighten the stock after every 1000-1500 shells!

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
So... brand ain't a myth, then? It does matter?
:)
Got my first Ruger after trying to be a Star owner. Low, low price, that Star. Sometimes I could shoot two in a row without a jamb. Then I read up on them. It was "living down to" its brand expectations. Had a Bryco-Jennings (which in order to avoid endless litigation moved to Las Vegas, if I read right, and changed its name to Jiminez).
Because of the incredible low cost and, from a distance, good looks, some gun owners came running to check out the "new gun manufacturer." Fit and finish weren't so good close up. One was reliable, next one wasn't. Trigger feel wasn't consistent, gun to gun.
First response to the brand was sort of, "You get what you pay for, you know?" For someone who needs a bedside defensive weapon but can't afford a Ruger or Taurus (fairly low-priced but much higher quality guns), you could get this Jiminez for $120 or whatever, and still have a deterent. You just wouldn't like it as a range gun much. You probably wouldn't have it for its inheritance value. But you could be pretty sure people coming in your bedroom against your protests wouldn't like it pointed at them.
Then people realized it was really a Bryco-Jennings: "Oh. There it is, then." Different name, living "down" to its old brand. We can put personal experience aside (mine was a dud) and look at the larger experience: Of the people who are into guns, there are some who buy this one. One set of them buys it because you don't have to take care of it. (Who cares if it gets rusty in your tackle box?). One set buys them for the novelty of having one: "Got me this gun for under $150 bucks -- and it even works sometimes!" Another set buys it for its "place" in a collection: "Here is proof a gun doesn't have to cost $600."
There *are* reasons to buy a Jiminez. But it's rare to find a guy (though I did read of one) who'll get rid of a Glock or Sig and replace it with a Jiminez.
Brand is not a myth. It represents the collective experience of customers, not the exceptional few.

 

cuchulain

Starting to Get Obsessed
Feb 28, 2014
215
0
Massachusetts
Brand matters when it's well supported, like you said. I knew when I bought my husky that it would run well and do the job it's meant to do. Same with my F-150 (Well, it's been needing work, but it's a "classic" so that's to be expected).

-Hoffman Boots, another brand I'll stay loyal to. They make good boots that hold up well.
Unfortunately there are quite a few brands that don't live up to expectations. John Deere small engine products (weedwhackers, blowers, etc.) have been awful to me. Same with McCulloch saws. Red Wing boots went downhill once they outsourced production to China, as did Stanley Thermos. You can't just trade off of your image and expect everything to go fine without upholding the standards that got you there.
I'm a rookie in the world of pipes, and I'll likely remain that way as I have a daughter on the way and cannot afford a $500 hunk of briar that's been hand crafted and polished with virgin tears. I'll continue buying MM Cobs as their "brand" stands for cheap but serviceable pipes, as does Dr. G,

 

cuchulain

Starting to Get Obsessed
Feb 28, 2014
215
0
Massachusetts
I work in the manufacturing field. I pressure treat lumber. If you're buying PT lumber from any lumberyard in Western Mass and the tags say Wolmanized Lumber I treated it, and I stake my reputation that your barn or your deck, stairs, or whatever project you bought it for will hold up. If you're buying PT lumber from Home Cheapo in CT, VT, NH or ME I made that as well.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
I *knew* I wasn't nuts. Employee pride and craftsmanship are also part of brand.
So now back to pipes. Does it matter *with pipes*, or is that what the argument is really about: brand doesn't make a difference in overall value of a pipe?
See, I think you could get away with saying "The briar isn't necessarily better. A wide range of companies are getting the same quality briar." I think you can easily make a case that mechanics of a pipe aren't necessary better from one brand to another. If you drill it right and follow pretty well-established form, it's the same, right?
But that's it. And that's not the limit of "brand." Brand is much bigger than material and form.
If we reduce the whole discussion down to "I can find a basket pipe that smokes better than this one Dunhill I have," then I have no argument. Totally agree. But let's make sure we're phrasing it that way, and not saying with one giant brush, "Brand is a myth."

 

cuchulain

Starting to Get Obsessed
Feb 28, 2014
215
0
Massachusetts
Employee pride and craftmanship. What an interesting concept. I think that's something that's been largely forgotten these days. You're spending most of your waking hours working and making something, why not give a damn about it?
I had a coworker who I damn near decked for constantly screwing up the treating and fucking up my plant. Goldbricking bastard, but he could suck up to management. Me, I just do my job, and that's the important part.

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,569
15,214
SE PA USA
Look back at the word origin for "brand" and you'll understand what it means. It's a label and nothing else. If Bob makes good pipes, then the pipes with the Bob Brand label stuck on them are good pipes. It's a tautology. As soon as people start buying the label, though, and not the pipe, then the quality of the pipe doesn't matter, because, after all, they are buying a label, with a pipe attached to it. There are plenty of real-world examples of the label/product reversal.
So the label serves as an identifier. It makes purchasing decisions easier, especially for those who can not discern quality on their own. All of this is contingent on the brand-owner maintaining a consistent product, which of course, seldom happens, thus making much of the brand's usefulness moot. Unless you are using brand as a status symbol, then again, you are buying a label, not a product.
So does brand matter? It's a subjective question in many cases, I'm afraid.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Just talking to my son about that last night. He's been in the Air Force five years and is depressed by the recruits. Depressed by those working desks. Depressed that they don't give a crap, and no one's making them give a crap. He is certain that when he returns to civilian employment, things will be much better.
I laugh but I feel sick. I don't think it will be different for him.
You ever see me write long, long posts in here, you find yourself a bookie and place this bet: "Pups hasn't been sleeping." (I get real verbose when I'm overtired. Can't shut up.) I'm scared for our company and have been picking up some slack from other workers. And then... can't satisfy anyone. I've taken on too much, just sort of pissing everyone off because now I'm behind. I come *here* for a brain break before going back *there* -- but I don't want to go back there.
Here's the thing I keep telling my son: They've done it before and they'll do it again, and it seems every time they do it, only the children cry.
To Kill a Mockingbird.
Atticus - "They’ve done it before and they did it tonight and they’ll do it again, and when they do it – seems that only children weep.”

 

pipedreamer

Might Stick Around
Oct 29, 2012
94
1
Brand at one time meant your product. Like your word, it meant something. If repeated often enough, it stood for quality in that product. We use to call it a work ethic i.e.:made in America stood for quality.We can no longer rely on brand as a guide. We have to observe the product and who will stand by it.

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,569
15,214
SE PA USA
Brand at one time meant your product. Like your word, it meant something. If repeated often enough, it stood for quality in that product.
I have to disagree with you.
While brand certainly can mean all that, and has meant all that at times, there have been plenty of branded products throughout history that were lousy, dangerous and deceptive. As Ian Shoals once said: "Nostalgia is a cheap dream made in Japan".

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Yeah, we're all using the term differently. That's the reason I took it out of the original thread. I agree with Dr. Hanna that it would be sad if people thought they had to buy a Dunhill to get a good smoke. You obviously don't. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about cobs so much. And comparing Dunhills to Petersons or Stanwells or Grabows... wasted time.
But some people have gone wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overboard. Even Hanna had said he was only going to talk about one brand not necessary imparting a better *taste* than another brand.
When you get to "smoking experience," you just jumped off the edge of the mappable universe. And when people say "brand is a myth," they're drunk or their brain is unplugged or something....
That's my point. Whoa whoa whoa whoa down.
I began the day here sharing the nature of the discussion with my colleagues. Probably about 15 seconds into talking about "brand as myth," one of the young ladies faces was folded up with consternation like an oriental fan: "What? What are they saying, that the company doesn't exist?" Brand is company identity, the collection of characteristics that make it, it. Not all those characteristics are fluff.
Are they all fluff when it comes to pipes? I still don't think so. I still agree with him that you don't want Newbies thinking they ain't smoked a pipe until they've smoked a $300 pipe (or more). He does us all a service in backing that up with his factual, common-sense list of what does/doesn't contribute to taste. Favorite point: that a well-broken in pipe of any make, made from mature and properly cured briar, can smoke just fine without junking up the taste. And the most sophisticated palates (or tongues, noses, whatever) couldn't blind-taste-test one pipe from another.
That I'm all good with. That's an inarguable point. We all agree on that one. Anyone who doesn't agree with that, stand up so we make faces at you, you retard.
But Hanna had said pipes are not like cars. Brand doesn't work that way for pipes.
Whoa.
Brand isn't just about one thing. And it's not really about gimmickry or fancy advertising. It's about a slew of things.
I'll happily and confidently pay what to you is a measly $30 for a Grabow.

- It's an established brand, trusted by lots of folks

- They're mass-produced -- which isn't a bad thing, it's repeated quality at a lower price point

- They have good customer service. I won't be "screwed out of my money"

- They have historically "worked" for bazillions of people (which unfortunately or not, means they don't have snob appeal).
But I won't give $30 on eBay for a pipe that's described in poor English, if at all, and has a Chinese sending address.
Why? Duh!! No confidence, no security, no brand. (Okay, one goes by Vogue Noble and promises there aren't harmful chemicals in it this time. Yeah- no.)
Give you $30 for an estate Peterson, though. Or Savinelli. Or... Dunhill. (unless you want $55 s/h, you thief).
Brand matter? Hell yah, it matters.
Is brand a guarantee??? Um... no. No, it's not a guarantee. No one's record is 100%.
And with my luck? Dude. Like playing Russian roulette with a semiauto and one in the chamber. I have stupid bad luck.
I buy a bad Chinese pipe, I kick my own ass and either give it to someone I don't like or throw it away. If I buy a Peterson that seems screwed up or tastes bad, I have a phone in my hand or a keyboard tapping away in seconds. I expected more, and I'm getting more.
It's a brand name, after all. That's my leverage. Do you want me running around telling people you didn't live up to your brand?
Simple as that.
Taste better with price? No, that's a myth. There are children's stories written about that myth.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Ha! Beat Hanna on another point now. I just had the vineyard manager blindfold me, spin me around and see if I could tell my Ford F150 from the hog farmer's Dodge Ram in a blind taste test.
Wasn't even close!
(Literally. I didn't even have to get close.)
:)

 

igloo

Lifer
Jan 17, 2010
4,083
5
woodlands tx
It will never cease to amaze me how Cat can get a part across the country so a machine can run the next day .Dolmar invented the chainsaw and still makes the best one .Danner boots are worth the money .But Schwinn is made by Dynacraft now .Most of the great lawn tractors are all gone Cub Cadet and Bolens come to mind .A lot of brands are not what you think they are these days and that includes tobacco brands ,computers ,televisions and lots of other things .Buyer Beware .

 

fnord

Lifer
Dec 28, 2011
2,746
8
Topeka, KS
One terrific post!
And three great one liners?
I'll be go to hell...
Cuchulain: "I have a daughter on the way and cannot afford a $500 hunk of briar that's been hand crafted and polished with virgin tears."
12pups: "And with my luck? Dude. Like playing Russian roulette with a semiauto and one in the chamber. I have stupid bad luck."
Woodsroad: "As Ian Shoals once said: "Nostalgia is a cheap dream made in Japan"."
You guys are wonderful.
Fnord

 
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