I was fascinated by the interview by the late Gwen Ifil with Aretha Franklin maybe a year before Gwen died. I thought since they were two prominent African American women, there would be a strong sense of sympatico. Instead, it was an interesting balancing act, not a standoff, respectful so to speak, but you really appreciated how strong Aretha was, and how she never gave any ground to management, musicians she worked with, or journalists. And Gwen reciprocated by being perfectly poised and resilient. It was a hard-edged conversation indeed. Quite remarkable. I thought, wow, if I ever had to talk with either of them, I'd really do my homework. Obviously, they had.