What is the new date for the regs?

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fightnhampster

New member
Aug 14, 2019
24
0
I know the original date was August or September of 2018. Thankfully that got pushed back. However I don't know when the new date for them to go into effect is. Anybody have insight?

 

warren

Preferred Member
Sep 13, 2013
7,345
21
What ever it is today, it'll be something different sooner than later.

 

fightnhampster

New member
Aug 14, 2019
24
0
Thanks! Its good to know how much more time I have to stock up on the post Feb 07 blends.
Warren: I don't want to assume that it will get pushed back again. I want to get all the endangered blends I like.
Side note: I'm still mad that I missed out on stockpiling a lot of McClelland blends. I don't like how they handled their closing. No warning whatsoever. I have one tin of Blackwoods Flake and I don't know if I can ever bring myself to open it :)

 

hoosierpipeguy

Preferred Member
Jan 28, 2018
1,968
18
If you paid attention, the McClelland closing was no secret. The rumors were prevalent in the November time frame 2017. I started buying in late November and had 4 or 5 months from there to purchase most any McClelland blend.

 

skydog

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2017
312
0
My philosophy on the McClelland rumors before the official closing announcement was "5100 is gone and that's not good. If I stock up on my favorite McClelland Virginias and they don't close then no harm done because I would have bought those tins eventually anyways." I wanted to believe they wouldn't be closing but I was positive that if they did then I wasn't going to get caught shorthanded so I bought as much as I could from the time the news about 5100 no longer being produced hit.
I don't think the McNeils could have handled it any better. The tins of 40th Anniversary were being snatched up by everyone as quick as McClelland could produce them even before they announced they were closing. Any prior leak of the closing info would have made it impossible for the fans of McClelland to actually acquire any of their favorites near the end in my opinion.

 

sablebrush52

Preferred Member
Jun 15, 2013
9,592
83
May 11, 2020
Nope. You have a bit more time than that. It was extended from August 8th 2018 to August 8th, 2021, but in some cases could go to 2022.
Anti-smoking groups are suing the FDA over the extension. Given the time our judicial system gets to a decision, sometime in late 3020, no one will much care.
 

sablebrush52

Preferred Member
Jun 15, 2013
9,592
83
My philosophy on the McClelland rumors before the official closing announcement was "5100 is gone and that's not good. If I stock up on my favorite McClelland Virginias and they don't close then no harm done because I would have bought those tins eventually anyways." I wanted to believe they wouldn't be closing but I was positive that if they did then I wasn't going to get caught shorthanded so I bought as much as I could from the time the news about 5100 no longer being produced hit.
I don't think the McNeils could have handled it any better. The tins of 40th Anniversary were being snatched up by everyone as quick as McClelland could produce them even before they announced they were closing. Any prior leak of the closing info would have made it impossible for the fans of McClelland to actually acquire any of their favorites near the end in my opinion.
One of the worst kept secrets in the piping community. The information about the impending closing was supposedly passed on to dealers so they could inform their McClelland devotees in advance. The idea was to reward loyal customers with an opportunity to stock up before the piranhas, compulsive hoarders, or just plain nut jobs descended. It pretty much worked.
 
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chasingembers

Preferred Member
Nov 12, 2014
15,489
106
Nope. You have a bit more time than that. It was extended from August 8th 2018 to August 8th, 2021, but in some cases could go to 2022.
Anti-smoking groups are suing the FDA over the extension. Given the time our judicial system gets to a decision, sometime in late 3020, no one will much care.
Apologies, got that date from here.

 

sablebrush52

Preferred Member
Jun 15, 2013
9,592
83
Apologies, got that date from here.

RIght. That refers to the deadline for registering products for deeming, but doesn't affect products currently on the shelves that will not undergo the deeming process. For products that are not grandfathered in, the kill date is still August 8th 2021 unless they are undergoing the deeming process. If those products are not approved, they get killed off August 8th 2022. Of course, this could change at the drop of a hat, and all of these "undeemed" products could go at a moment's notice.
 

lawdawg

Preferred Member
Aug 25, 2016
629
44
RIght. That refers to the deadline for registering products for deeming, but doesn't affect products currently on the shelves that will not undergo the deeming process. For products that are not grandfathered in, the kill date is still August 8th 2021 unless they are undergoing the deeming process. If those products are not approved, they get killed off August 8th 2022. Of course, this could change at the drop of a hat, and all of these "undeemed" products could go at a moment's notice.
My understanding is that the crux of the pending lawsuits which you mentioned above in another post involve an argument that the FDA has no authority to extend the regulatory deadlines, so if my understanding is correct and the anti-tobacco zealot plaintiffs prevail, then the axe could come down immediately, though as you also mentioned that seems unlikely given the level of efficiency in our legal system.

EDIT: and on that note, I just ordered a few pounds of Sleepy Hollow over the phone from Straus Tobacconists
 

craiginthecorn

Preferred Member
May 8, 2017
1,128
13
Sugar Grove, IL, USA
The avenue for obtaining premarket approval for non-grandfathered blends will almost certainly be through the use of something called Substantial Equivalence. Essentially, it allows a manufacturer to claim that their product is essentially similar in its constituents to a grandfathered product and therefore does not present greater risk to health than the specified antecedent product.

I expect at least some of the producers have been hard at work creating applications, although I have had trouble finding any that have actually been submitted for pipe tobacco. I anticipate that virtually all pipe tobacco premarketing applications will be on the basis of substantial equivalence to a grandfathered product. These can be products the are or were made by other other manufacturers. Now, there’s a mile of fine print defining what constitutes substantial equivalence, so depending on the political winds, these applications could either be treated in a common sense manner, or well, in another way.

The FDA did release a database of a small subset of grandfathered tobacco products of various types, the advertised intent of which was to provide a list of products which could be used as antecedent products for substantial equivalence applications. This database can be queried here. I found it easier to use the option to export the data as a CSV to view in a spreadsheet tool. This list is clearly stated to be incomplete, so don’t despair if your favorite old blend isn’t listed here. There are a lot of favorites, but sadly, none of mine. You’ll find quite a number of popular blends, including many of the most popular bulk and OTC blends, like Lane 1Q, BCA, and RLP-6, most of the John Middleton blends, and most, if not all of the Davidoff tinned blends, including Flake Medallions. (Hint: Just select “Pipe Tobacco Products” in the tobacco product category dropdown and click “Search”.)

Regarding actual substantial equivalence applications, you can find the results here. I looked, but didn’t find any real pipe tobacco applications that had been processed. My recollection is that there might be some roll-your-own cigarette tobacco falsely marketed as pipe tobacco for tax purposes, but no pipe tobacco. Lots of them are simply packaging changes, like the package volume or quantity.

My hunch is that most of the pipe tobacco manufacturers are laying low and won’t submit applications until the very last minute. At least that way, if the application is rejected, they will maximize the length of time that they can continue to market the product until that determination is finalized, which could take years. Imagine the backlog they’ll have at the FDA if I’m correct. Hell, just C&D’s applications could keep them busy for months at the rate they’re currently reviewing them.

I am a little surprised that we haven’t see a few sacrificial lambs submitted for Substantial Equivalence, just to test the waters. Certainly Laudisi has a few C&D blends that they wouldn’t mind discontinuing for now. Sykes is a bright fellow and I’m sure they’ve hired consultants and lawyers to advise them, so I trust that they’re taking the best possible approach.
 
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blendtobac

Preferred Member
Oct 16, 2009
1,210
23
The main issue with standard equivalence will be definitions. If, for example, the FDA accepts "Virginia" or "flue-cured" as an acceptable item then the door is open, since we would be able to change bright to red or stoved in a blend and it holds up to the rule. The more specific the definition, the less wiggle room we have. The devil is in the details.

Russ
 

lawdawg

Preferred Member
Aug 25, 2016
629
44
The main issue with standard equivalence will be definitions. If, for example, the FDA accepts "Virginia" or "flue-cured" as an acceptable item then the door is open, since we would be able to change bright to red or stoved in a blend and it holds up to the rule. The more specific the definition, the less wiggle room we have. The devil is in the details.

Russ
Thank you for the industry insider thoughts, Russ. Chatham Manor has become my go-to burley, so of course I'm hoping that it as well as a few of your other blends (Chestnut and White Knight in particular) will be able to stick around!

As an attorney, I suspect that the definitions you mentioned will be ripe for litigation once the FDA deeming rules go into full effect in 2021, especially if the FDA makes an overly strict interpretation of those definitions. Professional tobacco blenders would be a top choice to act as expert witnesses at trial to advise the courts about the definitions of tobacco-related terminology.