Naval Collision Inquiry

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okiebrad

Starting to Get Obsessed
Feb 13, 2016
292
2
aldecaker - You could be correct as to why Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin was relieved of duty but I hope you are incorrect. I tend to envision the better side of people. I would like to think that Aucoin took full responsibility of the recent tragedies and his superiors were forced to relieve him of duty.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
Oh, it's definitely just a "maybe". For all I know, he could be the best and most conscientious officer the Navy has ever seen. I'm just an incorrigible pessimist, which rarely leads to disappointment.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
I don't put much of this off on chance (or luck), since it has been four incidents in succession, in the same classes of ships, in the same fleet. The trick is to sort out all the variables. There's a precipitating cause that starts the chain, then subsequent weak points and mistakes. To give the crews credit, there was some gutsy rapid damage control response that kept these ships from flooding and listing more than they did, or sinking outright. They had to seal off the flooded compartments after rescuing the people in the compartments, to the degree possible. Scary and hairy and death-defying work, at top speed. So if there are heros here, those are the guys, and maybe gals. On the McCain, the communications spaces were among those damaged, so that brings it home to me, having manned a minesweeper radio shack. We were a high and visible target -- oh good. And I bunked in one of those vault-like berthing compartments at the waterline, but we did have pretty good ventilation/a.c., and my work space was a.c., not for the sailors but for the radio gear. The guys who died on the Fitzgerald looked pretty much like my shipmates--same age,diversity, haircuts. I'll watch the progress on these inquiries with serious interest. This elevates my respect for the officers and especially senior enlisted who saw us through many months at sea, a typhoon "evasion," combat zone patrols and more. If that was a typhoon evasion, I can't imagine what a non-evasion would have been like. I had to go out on the weather decks to get messages to the bridge, hanging on to the lifelines for dear life.

 

oldmojo

Might Stick Around
Jan 9, 2017
96
1
I'm wondering what the hell is going on. The Forrestal fire was the only major incident during my 8-year tour. Well, there was that fast attack boat that limped into Pearl with a mashed-in bow, but that was kept pretty quiet. All these collisions in quick succession, though... sabotage? training gone to hell? ???

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
Yeah, all those older, lower-tech, smaller, more mundane ships plodding through their cruises and staying off the rocks and not being hit by large commercial vessels. Not so far. So what gives with them?

 

tslex

Lifer
Jun 23, 2011
1,482
15
Something is systemically wrong here.
My own theory includes [among other things] the notion that watchstanders are now so pressed with other responsibilities and pointless training ("Today in Diversity!") that 1. seamanship is being neglected and 2. time/rest/attention are stretched too thin.
Now, junior officers especially have always been pressed, right? It's like being a resident in a hospital. You have a division of sailors to run, then maybe you're the MWRO, and you have watches to stand etc. Fine. But the sheer weight of paperwork these guys now face running the division, and making sure every sailor has been through every chickenshit* feel-good training evolution is ridiculous. Watchstanders, especially junior officers, need to be concentrating on sailing the ship, fighting the ship and -- heaven forbid -- saving the ship. But the culture now, mixed with the deployment tempo, is leaving -- pardon the phrase -- big holes.
* "Chickenshit" is not a random expletive. Rather, chickenshit is anything that is mandatory, but does not serve the mission.

 

tslex

Lifer
Jun 23, 2011
1,482
15
As for this wreck, note where the casualty to the ship occurred. Unlike with the Fitz, the McCain appears to have been the stand-on vessel.
I don't know enough about what happened with the MCCain yet, but with the Fitz is now seem clear the commercial vessel was on autopilot, possibly with NO ONE on the bridge. Outrageous, but still ultimately a failure for the USN.
The lives lost are tragic. The blow to the credibility of the US naval presence in an area of the world where it is VITALLY important? Dangerous.

 

tslex

Lifer
Jun 23, 2011
1,482
15
Sigh.
You guys.
I guess I did sort of lob that softball. (Although officers were never pressed, only ordinaries.) Good inverse pun though.
Clearly I meant "put under great pressure in terms of time and demands made upon them."
But yeah. Gotta admit. If I'd seen it in someone else's post, I'd have probably pounced.
Now. Thoughts about my theory?

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
42
If your theory is that the focus on seafaring is playing second fiddle to the focus on PC crap and the whole "a global force for good" PR bullshit, then yes, I agree that that is a possibility.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
I don't know what the situation is on the commercial ships, but the Navy ought to know it inside out, both through direct inquiries with the ship owners, informal discussions with the officers, and through Naval intelligence undercover work. Are they ever, always, usually on auto-pilot, and if so, are there back-ups, etc. etc. This ought to be a known. If these are robot ships, that's part of navigating, knowing all about it. Its known by someone. It 's not metaphysical.

 

cranseiron

Part of the Furniture Now
May 17, 2013
589
67
McHenry, MS
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fatigue-and-training-gaps-spell-disaster-at-sea-sailors-warn/ar-AAqNyO8?li=BBnb7Kz
According to this article the problem is overwork leading to exhaustion and impaired decision making.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
Serving as a fleet sailor at any level is a hard life. Sleep can be broken by cleaning details, and other work on top of watches. We were at sea for months at a time.

 

cranseiron

Part of the Furniture Now
May 17, 2013
589
67
McHenry, MS
If this is indeed the problem then it is systemic, yet the in situ operational leaders will still burn. I've seen shit like this happen when I was active and it's f'ed up! Ultimately, it leads to officers making timid decisions and actions for fear of losing their careers, in turn, leading to careerism and, in turn leading away from bold decision making and bold action. Peel the onion and therein lies a major problem with our military officer corp.

 
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