Massachusetts really where our freedom fight started?

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edgreen

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Aug 28, 2013
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I saw a feature about the town of Westminster outlawing all tobacco sales in the town as a health measure. All those interviewed talked only of cigarettes, but the mayor had the best quote of all. She said she was saving lives because "we know half of those people who choose to smoke cigarettes are going to die." I've never smoked cigarettes but I might start because I'm pretty sure 100% of the rest of us are going to die. Apparently, unlike early Mass. settlers who started the Revolution or built Harvard, BC, and later MIT, the present residents care nothing for either fighting for their freedoms or to a higher education level and prefer stupidity in their elected officials and even more restrictions.

 

daimyo

Preferred Member
May 15, 2014
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Like it or not, informed and intelligent or not, big tobacco and cigarettes ruined tobaccos image. You are quite safe hating tobacco these days and thus tobacco restrictions are easy fodder for politicians looking to score points. Even those who do smoke don't seem keen to stand in the way of hate train.

 

bulldogbriar89

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Oct 3, 2014
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thats what happens when you put a woman in charge. just kidding, but it is sad to see these politicians destroying a big American industry. when will liberals learn from history that socialism leads to communism and is a good idea until the rich run out of money and every one is equally poor and living ob the streets.

 

rayje589

Senior Member
Nov 28, 2012
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That's... a little close to home. I'm pretty sure POed people will start going to NH just to give the middle finger to Mass.

 

conlejm

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Mar 22, 2014
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Sadly, though we claim to be the "Live Free Or Die" state here in NH ... we are almost as Blue a state as Taxachusetts nowadays. Fill yer cellars, people.

 

lucky695

Preferred Member
Apr 2, 2013
765
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Do you think that I should spend all the money I can on tobacco and keep my middle of the road pipes, then when you can't buy tobacco anymore or it's too taxed, I can buy pipes. Will they ban those too, becasue I have some that are truly works of art... can't ban art... Some blends I have too are works of art though.

 

ravkesef

Preferred Member
Aug 10, 2010
2,529
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Cheshire, CT
Notwithstanding the fact that the mayor of the town is an uninformed, and under-educated dolt (as too many of our elected officials are,) I'd like you to please read carefully what Daimyo wrote, because it's right on target. Big tobacco was caught with their pants down, documentary evidence showing that they knew of the harm cigarettes caused, but chose to conceal it, targeting children, etc., and finally the chickens came home to roost. We can argue that pipe tobacco is different (it is,) and that pipe smoking is different (it is,) and a host of other things, but the fact remains that the actions of big tobacco, coupled with the stupidity of many politicians, or perhaps the savvy of many politicians and the stupidity of their constituents could bring us all down. If you don't understand or don't agree, please reread Daimyo.

 

mso489

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Feb 21, 2013
25,941
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Talk about going for the low-hanging fruit of doing "good." I bet I could spot about 25 things that

need improvement or correction, legitimately, in that town by stopping for a cup of coffee (if it's

not prohibited). I bet I could hear 25 reasons all of the suggestions are utterly impossible.

 

doctorthoss

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Oct 6, 2011
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Bulldogbrisr,

Just to be clear.... Liberals don't believe that kind of stuff, any more than conservatives believe Hitler was a good guy. Im not even sure what socialism means anymore, and I can't think of a country in history where socialism led to communism (ironically, it was so-called liberal socialists who helped lead the fight against Soviet Russia, or at least people who get called socialists nowadays).

But that's all irrelevant, because it's not a socialism issue. This isn't about whether the government should regulate industry or help lower income workers not starve. It's about whether a drug should be banned from public consumption. I have heard my entire life from conservatives talking about the evils of drugs and the necessarily of locking millions of Americans behind bars. Fewer people use tobacco so it doesn't directly affect as many as it used to, peoples now realize it is a drug, and the simple fact is (as has been pointed out already) Big Tobacco got caught with their pants down. But banning cigarettes is 100 percent consistent with banning other drugs used recreationally. I agree that the government should not do it, I believe we should have the right to make up our minds about our private lives.... But this is completely consistent with the government using its power to dictate what we do with ourselves, and the conservatives have led the charge on the govenrments right to do exactly that. Or, at least, until it was something that directly affected them.

It's not a liberal/conservative issue. Here in Tennessee, we have banned smoking in restaurants and businesses, you cannot smoke it hotel rooms, and more anti smoking measures are comings. Guess what? Our governor and both houses of the legislature are completely dominated by conservative Republicans. The entire liberal/Democratic delegation to the state capital could fit in my living room with room to spare! They HATE so called socialists, refuse to accept Obamacare dollars, and still are anti tobacco.

You want to point a finger? Point it at the insurance companies, NONE of which are even remotely socialist and are, in fact, the most successful capitalists in our nation. They are pushing the anti tobacco agenda as hard as possible, and pouring their campaign contributions in ways to advance it. Why? They believe it will make them money. It's pure capitalism in action -- they have the money to buy politicians, they want tobacco gone because they believe it will help their bottom line, and they have more money /power than any other industry in the country. Money trumps freedom -- always has, always will.

 

edgreen

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Aug 28, 2013
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I'm sorry, but I've found no political divide on this issue. Both sides are working furiously to ditch the constitution and sell fairy tales rather than science. In fact, I'll be so glad when Tuesday is over. Both sides have been making me ill. I worry for my son but I'm glad I'll be gone by the time the constitution is totally gone.

 

condorlover1

Preferred Member
Dec 22, 2013
3,538
82
New York
This is a very interesting problem and one that raises the old blood pressure on both sides of the political 'Punch & Judy' show. Cigarette smoking is a very addictive thing and they just don't taste particularly nice unless you are on your eighth scotch. When Dan stayed with me in NYC I found a pack of Newport 100's left at my place by my friend Seymour and as there were 8 cigarettes I thought I would smoke them. They just taste of nothing but chemicals and I fail to see the attraction and had to smoke my pipe to get rid of the rancid taste but it was interesting to try a menthol filtered cigarette. That being said I can see how government policy and prohibitions come about. Everyone has a 'do good-er' they know. You know the type I am speaking of here. They devote their lives to a particular cause like banning fox hunting, nuclear disarmament etc. They are dedicated, humorless and are the types that will be the first to sit on the committee or action group. Because of the general apathy of the 'sheeple' these sad individuals become the people who turn their pet hates into law. Politicians, being on the whole a not very intelligent group assume that they are hearing the voice of the great unwashed, sense a few votes and oblige the zealot by banning whatever it is they are banging the drum about. You have only yourselves to blame and if more people got involved these people would vanish down a rabbit hole in double quick time.

 

gregprince

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Jan 29, 2014
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Thank you again doctorthoss. The is not an issue that divides "liberal or conservative". If you track the history of anti-smoking legislation I believe that you will find it to be fairly consistent on both sides of the aisle. It is, as daimyo pointed out, more the fault of the cigarette industry than of any politician or group of politicians. Of course, it is the insurance industry that is behind the drive.

 

frozenchurchwarden

Preferred Member
Mar 1, 2014
1,961
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I don't even necessarily disagree with taxes, restrictions or even prohibitions on cigarettes. The health affects are real (that is, the effects of inhaling smoke). I actually have a hard time telling someone that I use a pipe because people who are addicted will use any excuse to keep their habit. If I can "legitimately" use tobacco then in the mind of someone with an addiction it's only a small jump between what I do and what they do.

Just like how you would never pull out a bottle of hard liquor in front of an alchoholic, we need to be sensitive to people's weaknesses.
On the other hand, I do realize this trend is basically putting myself is a prison, and supporting a cultural mindset that I hate almost as much as the idea of people dying of lung cancer.
This whole situation really stems from a lack of personal responsibility in the general population (which is readily apparent in all aspects of modern society). Individual people can't be bothered to accept responsibility for their own actions, and everyone else thinks the government should be responsible for everything else too.

 

mcitinner1

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Apr 5, 2014
4,044
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Missouri
"You want to point a finger? Point it at the insurance companies."
Seems to me that government and politicians walk arm & arm with the insurance companies.
"I'm sorry, but I've found no political divide on this issue."
The insurance companies don't care which side of the aisle your on. :|

 

brian64

Preferred Member
Jan 31, 2011
5,143
35
Well said doctorthoss. IMO, the two major parties these days do not in any way resemble or represent socialism or the free-market. They both represent only the corporate interests that pay them to enforce the monopolies. The laws are written by corporate lawyers.
And let's not forget the other prime motivation for any type of prohibition...the powers that be make LOTS of profit on the black market, which is laundered through the big banks. The "war on drugs" is the biggest scam that ever came down the pike. The prison system is now being privatized for profit as well, and there are more people in prison in the USA per capita than any other country in the world. I guess we'll be adding tobacco users to those ranks in the not too distant future.
Another motivation as well...I suspect the pharmaceutical industry wants a monopoly on the use of nicotine.

 

doctorthoss

Preferred Member
Oct 6, 2011
618
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Personally, I have issues with laws against cigarettes, alcohol, pot, or even the so-called "hard drugs"(of course, I consider alcohol to be a hard drug from personal experience). I don't think the government should be allowed to criminalize the behavior of people in that way.

I also don't believe that pipe smoking is non addictive or harmless. Pipe smokers die of cancer and heart problems, too, although not at anywhere near the rate of cig smokers (about half of whom will die of smoking). But, as someone else pointed out, 100 percent of everyone dies. And I would rather half a shorter life that is MINE then a longer one that isn't.

And that is what this is about... It's our life. We get one chance here, and no one should be able to tell us how to live it.

 
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