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perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Sable, where I use a product has nothing to do with taxes. Are you saying that if I move to California and bring my stuff, I have to pay a tax on the stuff I brought with me in the move, because I'll be using it in California?
Sounds funky, but Hey you might have made a new form of tax structure. Keep this to yourself, it's dangerous! :mrgreen:

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,455
This is a huge wet blanket for online sales. States are hungry for revenue for starved educational systems through the university level and many other needs, and unfunded mandates they face, so this impels them to go for state taxes for online sales. It may hit somewhat less hard if it is built into the transaction somehow, so people won't be doing required paperwork and submitting separate tax payments, which will discourage shopping online at all. All those impulse purchases of clothes, toys, housewares, etc., will drop cold. If they make the collection of sales tax punitive besides, retail sales in general may droop or plunge as people try to figure out why everyone has their hand in their pockets. How this is done is as important as if it is done at all -- two possible bloodlettings for the buyers. If people make this partisan, it will add confusion and divisiveness and the damage will be worse all around. Hey, this is a community, remember, one nation, etc.

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,773
16,070
SE PA USA
Just watch. Every municipality in the US is going to want a bite of this. It will be sold to the electorate as “save local business” and “fund all day preschool”. Depending on state laws surrounding who can impose sales tax, there could be upwards a of 100,000 taxing entities looking for their share.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,747
45,290
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Sable, where I use a product has nothing to do with taxes.
Wrong.
It does if your state has a "use" tax, and guess what? All states except for 4 - Alaska, Delaware, Oregon, and Montana, have them on their books. You may not like or agree with it, but legally that doesn't means jack.
Simply put, if you order something from out of state to use in your state of residence, you owe tax on it. So if you buy a tin of Virginia Slag Heap from out-of-state for your use, and have it shipped to your home, you owe tax on it.
https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/rates
Point of sale doesn't apply, doesn't mean jack poo-poo. And, all those arguments about the point of sale are beside the point and completely, utterly, and totally MEANINGLESS.
Enjoy.

 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,629
14,733
Point of sale doesn't apply, doesn't mean jack poo-poo.
So does that mean I owe the same use tax to my state if I physically travel to another state, purchase something and bring it home to use? And if not, why not?

 

mrenglish

Lifer
Dec 25, 2010
2,220
72
Columbus, Ohio
I would think because there is no system to collect the funds for that (yet). All the states are doing is charging you taxes for Internet/MOTO sales, which, I agree is a usage tax. You would think the tax would apply from where you purchased the item but then home states cry foul about lost tax revenue, thinking you could have bought the item in your home state and duly paid the taxes to them. Which, to me, does not make a lot of sense.

 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,629
14,733
According to the info on the below page, sales taxes and use taxes are not the same thing...and are mutually exclusive. They cannot both be applied to the same item. The use tax applies to any item a consumer purchases out of state and doesn’t pay sales tax to their home state.
So...apparently...the answer is yes...even when you physically purchase an item out of state, if you bring it home to use you owe a use tax to your state. Isn’t that special.
But if you purchase something on-line from out of state and they apply a sales tax for your home state, then that is not a use tax. So we're basically right back where we started with the physical presence issue.
https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/the_difference_between_sales_tax_and_use_tax

 

prairiedruid

Lifer
Jun 30, 2015
2,004
1,135
So does that mean I owe the same use tax to my state if I physically travel to another state, purchase something and bring it home to use? And if not, why not?
Yes and it applies to other taxes as well. My border hopping once a month to buy cigarettes is technically smuggling because I'm deliberately paying Iowa tax to avoid paying Minnesota tax.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Ok Sable, just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it so. The Sales Tax Institute isn't the Constitution nor is it a statutory law or state law. We are not Europe, we do not have boarder check points between states. (I don't think Europe boarder control is as tight as it used to be) Now in California, you guys may have a more aggressive tax structure. I don't know. But the point of sale is everything when it comes to sale taxes.
I'm not taxed by Amazon four or five times ( sale tax, servicetax, use tax) because they have a few facilities in my state. Or the grocery store for that matter. That's asinine.
Get this smuggling thing out of your mind. Sounds like a lot of support for double and triple taxation.
I'll make sure not to move to Cali, I'll be taxed on the items I bought while in Ga.
Instead of being a proponent for taxes, why not be a proponent for cutting spending? Novel Idea, Huh.

 

butsiethesungo

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 3, 2016
103
71
44
Broussard, LA
I placed two separate orders on Amazon tonight and both included “estimated sales tax.” :oops:
Fortunately, it wasnt much tax but what if there estimation had been higher? :roll:

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Make sure to call your Revenue Service to make sure those items do not need a "use tax" applied separately, butsiethesungo. :mrgreen:
The use tax, is used largely for large items, Like cars. The states usually receive those taxes when you register the car in that state, via tag fees etc.
Don't blow the use tax out of proportion, Sable. If I buy a hammer in a Alabama, and cross the Ga boarder, the Georgia Department of Revenue isn't going to bust my ass over it. It's the larger items that they will collect on. That's in Ga, other states have different structures, though.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
For the record, this decision has nothing to do with a Use Tax. In Fact, the use tax will probably be swiped off the table because of the decision, being that its unconstitutionality will not have to be tested, with its disregard and burden of and on interstate commerce. Thus forcing congress to place these taxes at the point of sale. Which isn't the keyboard, but the businesses residence. What the ruling did was destroy the idea of physical presence, so that these taxes could be collected. Now the law suits will erupt, in deciding whether the State that the business resides in will benefit or the state receiving the good will benefit....or both. I would argue that a use tax is a tariff and no state has the right to inact tariffs on another state. That's why we have a Union, to prevent this type of burden on the consumer and the seller.
States can't do squat, until congress acts.
At the end of the day, this is all protectionist drivel...l sales tax, use tax, service tax. These forms of taxes aren't even 100 years old and were all created to pick winners and losers, which is what this is all about anyway. If my state wants me to buy in my state, then my state needs to support policies that create an environment to entice the business to reside in my state. Greed is a bitch.

 

briarbuck

Lifer
Nov 24, 2015
2,288
5,494
Last time I checked our country was started over taxation without representation...
I pay State taxes on all sales in State already.

My fees for UPS or FEDEX have charges included already for Road Use taxes when all my packages go.
So I already pay for the use of the other States roads. What exactly value add does the State of North Dakota bring to my company that would be worth of a tax to be paid?
I will tell you what comes next. AUDITS by States. You watch. Cali is going to demand to see the books of companies all around the US looking for tax dollars. Wisconsin already is doing this. Straight up money grab by people that have never created value in their life. FUBAR

 

dochudson

Lifer
May 11, 2012
1,635
12
As mentioned above now is the time to stock up! Price is going up and availability is going down plus this sales tax mess.
Ohio has a heavy tax on booze and smokes. some folks like to head south and load up on smokes and booze. The local Eagles were found selling booze without the Ohio tax seal. They no longer exist.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Interesting read on use taxes for those who care...
Last month, a federal trial judge held that the 4 percent use tax in the U.S. Virgin Islands violates the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The case, Molloy v. Government of the Virgin Islands, was brought by Robert Molloy, who moved from Virginia to the Islands and was forced to pay $2,365 in use taxes for property he brought from the mainland.
There is no sales tax in the U.S. Virgin Islands, but there is a 4 percent tax on all property brought into the territory from the mainland for personal use. These “use taxes” exist in most states and are levied on the use, storage, or other consumption within the state of goods or services purchased out of state. They usually accompany sales taxes (“sales and use tax”), and besides some high-ticket items, they are generally unenforceable.
Back in 1937, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of use taxes in Henneford v. Silas Mason Co., so long as they were nondiscriminatory and “compensating”—that is, designed to equalize taxes on both locally produced and imported goods. In that case, the State of Washington imposed a 2 percent use tax on the use of personal property in the state, but reduced the tax by any sales tax paid to Washington or any other state. For instance, if I buy a painting in Virginia (5% rate) and use it in an office in D.C. (5.75% rate), D.C. will only tax the difference (0.75% rate).
This is where the Virgin Islands use tax erred. Locally produced goods were tax-free, while imported goods were subject to the tax. Presumably, Molloy’s property had already been subject to sales tax somewhere else, but he still had to pay the full tax to the Virgin Islands government. As the judge put it:
The tax favors local businesses by sparing their merchandise sold within the territory and interferes with the free flow of goods across territorial boundaries. The legislature of the Virgin Islands, in enacting this tax, was engaging in prohibited economic protectionism.

Molloy had also argued that the tax violated the Import-Export Clause, which bars states from imposing tariffs on imports, although it is not settled that it applies domestically and not just internationally. The Court did not address this interesting argument, having already concluded the tax was unconstitutional.
By the way, this is from 2007.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,747
45,290
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Ok Sable, just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it so. The Sales Tax Institute isn't the Constitution nor is it a statutory law or state law. We are not Europe, we do not have boarder check points between states. (I don't think Europe boarder control is as tight as it used to be) Now in California, you guys may have a more aggressive tax structure. I don't know. But the point of sale is everything when it comes to sale taxes.
I'm not taxed by Amazon four or five times ( sale tax, servicetax, use tax) because they have a few facilities in my state. Or the grocery store for that matter. That's asinine.
Get this smuggling thing out of your mind. Sounds like a lot of support for double and triple taxation.
I'll make sure not to move to Cali, I'll be taxed on the items I bought while in Ga.
Instead of being a proponent for taxes, why not be a proponent for cutting spending? Novel Idea, Huh.
It is a use tax. You may have bought your dingus in another state over the Internet, but you're using it in your home and your state has a use tax that is equivalent to its sales tax. All states except for five, I forgot about New Hampshire, have this. That is EXACTLY what this is about.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,575
Call it what you want, it's a tariff. :wink:
I actually get what your saying Sable, and agree. As long as commerce is not burdened. The use tax is a sales tax. There are 45 different versions. My state wouldn't bust me over my dingus, but would bust me over your dingus, depending how large a purchase I made for your dingus. :nana:

 
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